Hey everyone welcome back to the Attorney hacker podcast in today’s Episode i have a tweet for you because We have one of our most popular guests Of all time John dickstra from fast tax blog and John dixtra is really well liked in the Community because he shares Live case studies of his own sites and Actually his biggest site just hit a Hundred thousand dollars per month’s Revenue which is really impressive And actually to celebrate that he is Actually giving 200 Off his course bundle where he shows Exactly how he does it So you can find all the info in the Description and on the link below So in this interview because we already Have an interview which i recommend you Go and check click on the card above There if you haven’t seen the first Interview I try to focus on topics that we haven’t Explored last time And we’re also focusing on things that He has done since the last time we’ve Talked so the first thing that he’s done Is he started flipping websites So i wanted to know how he does it how It changed his way of building sites and What he recommends you guys do To make more money from flipping Websites the second thing is he started
Doing a case study on Age domains using audis.global so i Wanted to just catch up on that and Understand how it’s going for him And kind of talk about the difference of Starting a website on an age domain Versus starting a website on a fresh Domain and finally one of the things That i was personally Excited to talk to him about was his Content production process because john Creates a lot of content for his size to Be honest more than we do And so i was quite interested to Understand how he does this so maybe i Can take something away and you can take Something away from the way he does it So we talk about content providers he Uses and how he manages freelancers Project management And quality control and all these things That are you know maybe boring to people Who don’t run websites but Actually very important to people who do Run websites so if you’re excited for This interview don’t forget to click on The subscribe button If you are on youtube and like us Because it really helps us reach more People with our podcasts And videos and without further ado let’s Get started with The interview [Music]
Hey everyone so john was one of our most Popular podcasts Uh i think it was last year uh literally I think i checked on youtube there’s 18 000 views on your podcast which is Pretty good Plus the audio downloads so i think in Total with probably close to 30k People who listen to this interview that We did together uh people were really Impressed with your success with your Sites etc and you’re probably one of the Most transparent persons in the industry So thank you for coming back to the Podcast and thank you for the audience Because I know they really enjoyed your podcast Last time so welcome back then Well thanks for having me gal good to be Back And uh one thing that happened since Last time i think you know the way i Kind of like promoted your interview Was like taking the income report number You had on your last Report which i checked just before but It was 71 000 Something dollars but i put the exact Number something and now you actually Broke a hundred Thousand dollars per month on that one Website right so i just wanted to say Congrats actually i’ve actually Never gotten 100k from just affiliate
And advertising i’ve gotten It from like selling products et cetera But actually congratulations on that That’s definitely Uh a big achievement well thanks yeah It was uh it’s been a good year yeah i’m Very happy about that Yeah uh before we start with the Interview though it’s like um You have been using a bunch of training As well so i thought you wanted to Mention that to the audience so Uh go ahead let them know what the offer Is no i appreciate it uh yeah i Have a it’s a course bundle it’s evolved Over the years i keep adding to it it Basically sets out a to z what i do And essentially it’s content uh Based sites uh highly informational type Content monetized mostly mostly with ads Some affiliate stuff and it just sets Out what i’ve done to build up A small portfolio of high earning Niche sites and and that’s the course And it’s constantly evolving but You know as we’ll talk throughout here You know there’s there’s also found Foundations in this business which Really is boils down to Content content content and i’ll get Into that for sure Yeah i like i like your approach i like Your like ads focused approach i think It’s like a different spin on what we do
But it’s definitely A very successful it’s one that i’m Actually just playing more and more into To be honest like we have some projects Now i’m looking at Where i’m like am i even going to bother With that marketing Focus first or like so so i definitely Want to do so Like there’s some projects we’re looking At right now that uh that might follow Onto what you’re doing so i recommend People go check out we’ll put the url Below so people can check it out Description on youtube And uh you can go and check john’s calls But one thing i read on your blog and i Wanted to start the interview on Is that you last time we did the Interview you mentioned that you never Sold your websites and you didn’t seem Very interested in the idea of like Flipping websites you know But it’s something that has changed Since last time because i was reading Your blog and you mentioned how you sold Some sites And it had like a profound impact uh on Like how you are thinking about the Business so i just wanted to You to tell us like what happened and How it changed your approach to building Websites Yeah well i launched it was about a year
Ago i launched a handful of new sites Actually i split up a larger site into Uh a series of smaller sites i tried Everything in the kitchen sink concept For a large site just wasn’t working so I broke it up And redirected it and the traffic was Pretty good and those sites were growing As individual sites Not so much altogether so then i ended Up with a i believe It was six or seven websites and you Know Financing and growing seven sites at Once was Very difficult and i managed to get them To a point where they were earning well And they were good sites and i liked Them but I couldn’t you know really reinvest Every month The amount that was necessary or devote The time to each site that was necessary So I decided try selling them and And that and i never sold a site in the Past so i’ve always Launched and grown them for the Intention of holding onto them and Growing them for the long term So it was really interesting and i sold Them and they sold all successfully Fairly quickly For multiples i was happy with or a
Price i was happy with And it was neat to see the exit side of This Business because i’ve always just Focused on on the monthly revenue and Trying to grow that And that’s difficult because you’re You’re constantly reinvesting Every month and so you know sites are Are losing money for many many months Depending how much content you put in But they would lose money and then Eventually you try to get them to where They’re profitable every month but when You sell them It’s it’s a nice it’s almost like this Big Bonus at the end you know the the sale So that was cool and that kind of opened My eyes to when you’re when you’re Looking at the long time return on Investment with these sites Is they don’t actually have to earn a Whole lot of money Every month to realize a sizeable Uh chunk of revenue coming in so so that Was nice and so That’s now i’m now actually building One site for sure probably two or three With the intention of selling not within The next few months but definitely Within the next year or two And so i’ve tweaked my overall Publishing strategy with with investing
In sites with the attention to selling Them Uh not 10 or 15 years down the road when I wanted like Cash out but um during the interim as Part of the business model Yeah uh actually we just sold one of our Sites today actually so that’s why i was Interested in asking Uh you about this but it’s definitely an Approach that i also wasn’t buying into Very much at the beginning and After we sold like a site for like quite A bit of money then Yeah i realized the payout was nice and Also i’ve i Looked at it as a way to de-risk some of The stuff so um This the first site we sold for example It was because To be frank i had found some really good Keywords that most of the competition Didn’t really understand The commercial intent behind but i know That as soon as they will put us in Eight trips or something They will all start running after us Yeah and uh and i was like It’s like i we didn’t have the authority We had good authority but not the Authority of the big guys that would Definitely be able to run after so Sometimes it feels like a way to kind of Like stabilize
And kind of like uh secure some of your Earnings you know and then you just like Um You can maybe put that money somewhere Else and so yeah it has been something That we’ve been looking at uh recently As well And i always tell the story of house of Mission a lot of people know that story But I literally had that uh that discussion With mark two Like two months before it crashed from The core medical date like One time wrong place about selling it i Convinced him not to sell it and it’s Like i’m like oh it’s like i wish i Started selling sides of it earlier you Know I’d probably be uh like yeah like i Could be a retro to be honest Um i had the same thing back before uh The first penguin i had an offer figure Out for first sight I said no this thing’s gonna grow tons So been there yeah I think i think most people who have Been in this industry for a while have Somewhat of a similar story you don’t Always win uh In this kind of stuff and i think it’s Important to say that as well but you Know you can still win overall Ah my question to you following that was
Would you ever sell your main site Or even 100k yeah i mean i I will eventually sell it uh no No plans right now to sell it but Eventually um You know the interesting process is the Series of sites i sold they’re all Smaller sites they were all With the exception of one which which Took a lot longer To sell but six i think it was five or Six whatever smaller sites Under a hundred thousand dollars uh they Go very quickly there’s a there’s a Lot larger pool of buyers who want a Site you know in the 25 to 60 000 range so they go quickly so It’s it’s not a lot of hassle to sell a Site like that but when you’re looking At selling a big site now i You you and mark have sold sites for a Lot more The whole process is is a lot longer at Least at least From what i’ve heard from people i Actually did one time Attempt to sell my biggest site i’m sure Glad i didn’t actually but it was still Valued at quite a number and you know The process was endless And it never did ultimately sell and you Do all this Work every month getting all the all the Numbers and you know
Obviously a buyer is going to want a ton Of due diligence As they should but it puts a lot of work On the seller right so It’s a hassle yeah you have to put Things in all those as well like i found That you know The way you run the business sometimes It’s not in a syllable state so like It’s hard to transfer or like It’s a mess like your your content Organization is a mess or like some Stuff For example the site we saw this week The people cared a lot about co-op Vitals just because you know it’s kind Of the flavor of the months right now Yeah and and that side did not pass Let me be honest here um and uh and It was a bit of a hustle it’s like we Actually had to do a little bit of work To make things a bit better etc so Sometimes you end up having Uh it takes you sometimes a month or two To get things in order Uh from the accounting point of view as Well we found Uh to actually be able to sell your site But uh Yeah okay that is uh interesting so now You’re going to be building to sell a Lot more right I am i mean there’s only so many i can Do i don’t know if i would do six or
Seven at the same time again that that That was just a sort of happy accident That evolved I didn’t plan any of it frankly uh but You know going forward now i’m being a Little more deliberate about it so Launching You know a few sites um i think i’d like To get them to the point where They’re more than you know the 25 or 50 000 Sale mark but you know still try to Hopefully get a good number inside two Years Three years would be nice yeah It’s definitely doable in like i mean We’ve done it like the case study the Public case study we did on the cell Was like you know meet six figures and It was 18 months Old the website that’s amazing that’s Great yeah yeah I mean it’s like they don’t all go that Well right but like this one did well Quite well and Yeah so it’s definitely possible uh this Was on high paying offers though high Paying fa offers on advertising because You need such large volume of traffic i Mean i’m sure you can to be honest like With like pinterest and all this stuff That you you’re doing it’s like it’s Quite possible to be honest um and Talking about new site my transition
Here was Actually to your next case study because You’re doing a case study on A odis dot global domain that you bought And i’m really glad you’re doing this Case study because it’s okay It’s a case that you asked spencer from Niche processes to do We don’t do like too much public case Study but i was like he was asking us Like oh what should i do and i told him Yeah a lot of people would like to hear About like how do age domains do Compared to new domains and so It’s an opportunity for me to ask you First of all to recap The case study for people and ask you About the Expired domains etc so can you tell People about the case study Sorry absolutely it’s i’m actually very Excited about site I have never done it’s it’s Buying an aged domain which was you know These are sites that were Well they were sites in the past they Aren’t now What otis does is they look for these They buy the the domains They’ve got them and then they obviously Sell them for a profit so Um i’ve i’ve been reading i’m sure you Have a lot of people watching and Listening
Have read about some of the benefits of And well basically Being able to get traffic from seo a lot Faster with the aged Domain so why not let’s let’s give it a Shot Uh it i i think you know it’s it’s a bit Riskier in that Like if if the domain isn’t good and and No content ranks you’ve shelled out the Money these they’re not that Cheap and you put all this time and you End up nowhere And it takes you six to twelve months to Realize this so That’s the risk but uh you know i’ve Talked to other people who’ve done this And they’ve had great success with it And so i thought i’d give a shot so Basically uh let’s see i’ve sort of Worked out an arrangement with otis and So i Got a domain and i’m working on the site I actually am i’m excited not just Because it’s an age domain though i have Found A really good niche that i think is an Excellent fit for me And i have found in the past that not All niches are good For every person like i i just sort of Have a preference for various types of Websites And various niches and i think everybody
Does and sometimes i’ve jumped into Niches which just not a good fit for me Just the way i My workflow my interests and all of that And you know we’ve all read about oh That site was a big success that covers This niche well then You know anybody can do it well it’s not Really true at least for me so I’m excited because i i found something I think it’s going to work really well Of course that’s assuming the age The whole age domain thing works looks Like it’s working It’s already getting traffic it’s a Couple months in and So we’ll see how it goes i’m putting a Big big effort into it i am building This with the intention to Sell it uh within a few years hopefully But See how it goes now uh i think the Potential traffic Is enormous based on keyword research so I got lots and lots of keywords that’s One thing i like Or look for in a site is that there is a Massive massive pool Of fairly easy to rank keywords they Don’t have to be like super super easy There could be some competition but you Know it’s definitely doable But there needs to be tons of them and Because i like to i like to invest in a
Lot a lot a lot of content And so this niche definitely fits the Bill the downside is i think I don’t have ads on the site yet that’s Coming very very soon I don’t think the ad revenue is going to Be all that lucrative per thousand Visitors so that’s going to be a big Downside but I’ll have to wait and see okay uh i mean It’s i wanted to ask you like you Started new domains you started Age domains like it’s hard to like put Numbers on these things but how does it Feel google picks up the content on the Age domain versus the new domain In terms of like i guess speed you know I would say It was probably within three weeks Four weeks i i i’ve got over a hundred Published pieces of content on that site Inside two months so I’m really it’s like a blatt so i’m Doing a lot so I think i checked this morning i have About 270 keywords that are registering In hrefs And which means they’re they’re now in The top 100. So that’s in about two months which Based on starting from scratch that’s Pretty good Look looks like the whole age thing is Working out
Because i don’t think you know had i put The same amount of content on a new Domain Would i get that many keywords already Registering at ahrefs it’d probably be More like the six Maybe the eight or nine month mark now The traffic’s still low because most of These keywords are you know position 50 Position 40 but It’s happening things are happening so It’s really too early i would say like Right now um you know i’m doing this Ongoing Write-up on the whole case study at Fastlaxblog.com I think i call it something like myotis Experience or something like that with Each domain so It’s really too early to conclude that This is definitely going to be a huge Advantage But uh you know i think at the 12 month Mark i’ll be able to see I i think that’ll you know you look at The traffic chart hopefully it’s like Hockey stick Fingers crossed we’ll see yeah I have uh i think it’s going to do quite Well i had a question Though it’s the um my problem with Buying uh Age domains and looking at these Marketplaces etc is that sometimes like
I pick a niche and i find a domain but You know it’s the domain of like Let’s say i want to do just a blog you Know and it’s like the domain of like an Old product in that niche or something It has a bit of a weird name etc so Is the name kind of like in phase with The site you’re building or is it a Little bit A little bit weird a little bit off Because that’s usually my problem with Expired domains or Hd yeah it’s a great point uh actually It’s Pretty spot-on uh and it’s Even more spot-on with the content that Was on it In years past i checked it i checked it All out well actually otis is cool They’ll send you all the links you know Um to pages on wayback machine as to What content was on there so you can see Right away like what types of topics so The topics are spot on the name is quite Good So yeah i would i would say it was been A it’s an excellent fit right now Okay but it’s something that i find Complicated when you’re like shopping For domains usually like you will find Domains in an issue you want but they’re Kind of like You know the main the name of a weird Product or something it’s like
Um my plan actually it’s like i have Some projects going on with Expired domains that i’m not necessarily Sharing publicly but the plan for me is To kind of like get them going for a Year and then going for a full Rebranding With full 301 redirect to you know Attend our domain that’s more branded And then But like give it a bit of a life first And show to google like look okay this Age domain This stuff happening and then when when It’s getting momentum then just Do as if as when a brand with brands you Know like for example transferwise just Rebranded twice for example They redirected their whole site uh and I’m sure their rankings they would be Shaky a bit but they’ll come back to What they were So that’s kind of my plan with these but I i need to validate this in real life Right now It’s working progress as well which is Why i’m Just asking questions at this point um Yeah will you uh will you buy more Expired domains based on your Experience uh both for new sites but Also for redirecting web to your Websites like would you do that Because i don’t need domains but if if
This works out As well as i hope yes absolutely for new Websites I doubt i would get into the buying them With the sole intention of just doing a Redirect i don’t think i would do that Um i like the idea you know they cost Thousands of dollars Well anywhere 700 is the low end up to Five plus thousand i think i think it Would buy them solely for the purpose of Building out a site on them yeah so i’ve Done I’ve picked up some sites for directx But i didn’t pick them up from audis Because it’s A bit expensive as you say i picked them Up from like good idea auctions for Example i use the tool called spamzilla It just has like a lot of filters for Multiple marketplaces for like drop Domains etc And you do find some good deals like i Found you know dr 35 sites or something That i’ve paid like 400 bucks for something and so it was Like Some really good links i mean i had Links from like the verge and even new York time et cetera from sites i picked Up from there And so i’ve done it for derek’s it does It’s not As powerful as it sounds like you know
You pick a site that has like links from New york times like oh my god that’s Amazing Yeah you get a boost but it doesn’t feel As good and so that’s why i wanted to Ask you Uh if you would consider doing something Like this basically so You get a boost but it’s not it doesn’t Sound it doesn’t look as good as if you Like The new york times did link to your Website basically in terms of ranking Boost from what i’ve seen Um but one thing that you’ve hinted at Is that you’re going very hard In terms of content for that case study Site right from your site i’ve read that You’ve published a hundred blog posts in Two months I think it’s about that maybe 115 120 Now yeah daily Uh uh yeah that’s that’s a lot and so It’s one of the things that I’m always like scratching my head when I’m like reading your content like How the hell do you output so much Content uh and we did not really cover That last time we talked more about Monetization we talked more about like Keyword research etc and And that’s something i really want to Dive in into like how you get so much Content done
Uh on your sites because you’re managing Multiple sites and all your sites have a Ton of pages And it’s uh it’s something that yeah It’s i’m very impressed by And so i wanted to start very basic do You Do you manage your content first of all Like what does your Your average day in your life looks like When you’re you’re walking Yeah well i i used to manage all economy I hired somebody recently who i’m Training and basically he’s up and Running so he he’s now actually being Like sort of the The last stop with quality control so He’s sort of taking that but until Recently i did manage i still do most of The keyword research That’s sort of my you know month i do That maybe a couple times a month And other than that once once the Keyword research once the keywords are Added to a google sheet that everybody Else who needs Who’s producing content be it the writer Access agency Or any writers who are working directly With me They all have access to these various Spreadsheets they pick up the topics and Go with it and then It gets handed off to vas who then
Format it put on the site schedule them Out and then Uh head va does a quality check and then Now this project manager i hired he’s Doing the final quality check making Sure everything’s properly done And then it gets published so that’s the Workflow in a nutshell so Really it’s just a matter of setting That up and paying for the content I don’t write it all but i i also should Clarify that It seems like a lot of content but i It’s actually not that much compared to A lot of other sites like My my largest site gets two New posts a day okay which isn’t a ton i Mean you know it’s It’s good but they’re long posts and They’re fairly involved posts And then the other sites would get you Know My i got one small site i’m kicking Along that might get Five or ten a month and then this news This new site i’m I’m really investing big and like that’s Anywhere from one to Four per day kind of depends where the Workflow ends up i mean as soon as They’re As soon as they’re ready we’re Publishing publishing publishing so I mean i know people are publishing 20
30 a day uh so You know i i wouldn’t qualify myself as As like Publishing a ton of content but i mean It’s enough to grow for sure And and it brings down to workflow and You know how much and if you look at my Income reports you can see the content Investment is pretty heavy every month But Again there’s people who are investing 100 000 a month just in content alone I’m not doing anywhere close to that Yeah so you mentioned that you have Writers that you work with And you have writer access as an agency Is that how your content team is split Is uh Like or or is there other sources of Content for your Websites uh that’s it right now yeah so You know i’ve hired some freelance Writers directly off Problogger job board great great place To go find excellent excellent writers And so i have four right now Working with me across the different Sites and then i also Get a lot of content from writer access I work with a content manager there who Then manages Uh my i guess i’ve got like a favorites List of Writers on there that have cobbled
Together over the years and then she Manages the content with them I actually checked their website uh i i Mean i heard about them but i never Really looked deep but like i was Reading your blog then i checked them Out There’s no pricing or anything is i Guess there’s like pretty high minimum Uh con amount of content to order to Work with them right Not really uh they have a you know a Monthly fee just to access the account Although Uh appsumo right now well at least they Did i think they still have All right okay uh lifetime anyways the Cost i think ranges anywhere the low The lowest would be either two or three Cents per word which is pretty in line With with like Most other providers they’re not gonna Go lower than that like I i actually my minimum is four cents i Often will spend six And there are some writers who i work With uh it’s eight And then once in a while it will go up To ten it depends on the nature of the Project so You know i’m not doing the two or three Cents a word and that sort of roughly Works out like i would say the five or Six
Cents a word works out with the Freelancers who work directly with me as Well That’s sort of how much it comes to Do you find yourself getting better Quality from freelancers or from the Content marketplaces or is it roughly Similar Uh you know if i hire the freelancers For very specific content So i would say like you know if i assign That to writer access i’m probably Getting Better content with the with the Freelancers because that’s sort of what They’re interested in and that’s what They’ve written about in the past so That’s that’s why i’m i’m working with Them the other big benefit is i actually Pay The freelancers hourly and so they also Do a lot of content updating And they can do editing and you know if You if you’re paying someone by the word And then you ask them to go do a Content update well you know i mean they Could spend hours and really only write 500 words i mean they’re not going to do That right they’re going to say no i Can’t i can’t do this so That’s worked out really well there’s a You know it’s it’s a different Arrangement that that’s working out Quite well
It’s actually yeah it’s a debate we’ve Had a lot i mean we had to pay people Hourly for content updates as well Because It’s like per what they just get screwed Basically they just don’t write that Much they need to research a lot Um but paying paying freelance writers Specialized reference fighters but by Hour rather than by world i feel like You get better quality of content from What we’ve tried as well like they just Care more like Uh and so it’s worked better for us um That’s a lot of writers still like do You use a project management tool like How does it look like From the are you just doing the email Everything No i’ve tried a few of them because i’ve You know i’ve read I don’t like them i spent more time just Setting it up And then i did set it up and then you Know i’m working with The vas and everybody else and and then Just i’m like so what do you think Is is this working or not and Everybody’s just like I hate it it’s just too complicated We’re spending more time messing around Trying to just Manage the software than actually Getting stuff done i’m like i 100
Agree shut it down i use uh personally i Use apple notes Pretty much like organizing Everything it’s instant it’s on all my Devices i can search i You know it’s so fast that manages a lot For the just for me and then google Sheets for everything else with Everybody else just a ton of sheets And everybody gets access to them and That does the job That’s all i use and then email so less Less is more Um i recommend you check the you check Craft notes if you use apple notes Uh it’s what i use to prepare the notes For this podcast so you can check it out But basically It is basically like a native app for Apple but like you have a few more Options for like the Images et cetera like you can organize Content a little bit more Okay and i i quite enjoy it but like it Feels like a very native Mini melee step just as well nice notes You provided so yeah that looks good Okay well uh How do you how does the review process For the content that arise work i think You mentioned that you have a va that Checks it and now your project manager But like How much effort goes into that and how
Often maybe you send content back for Edits etc like How does the ping works basically yeah Okay so Um i actually work with a content Manager at writer access which is a It’s a managed service okay so they’re The first level Now i don’t know if they’re doing a Whole lot like they they sort of just to Check that the Content is per the instructions provided They’re not really looking at writing Quality They’re not paid to do that so so as Long as the instructions were followed She approves it so then um the vas they Look more just for the Basically the formatting which they’ve Done on this on the site So they’ll look make sure the Formatting’s done the internal linking Is done and all that and then In terms of the con quality of the Article itself that’s done with that The project manager i recently hired who Goes through and make sure is that the The articles He he knows exactly what i’m looking for And then bets it that way And i’m still spot checking i still spot Check maybe once a week i go through i Actually Still up i’m the only one who applies
Tags I’m very very particular about Taxonomies And which articles get which taxonomies Particularly tags because i have a lot Of tags but i use them Methodically so i’ll apply the tags and I’ll spot check content and make sure That The instructions are you know that Things are Are going the way i wanted them to go so That that’s sort of the quality control I think the quality control can be Improved even further like almost Basically hiring a dedicated Editor to actually review this stuff Along the line and And that probably would be the next hire Would be a full-time person who’s like Really combing through the content Carefully Doing further edits making making it Even better Yeah so before you had that project Manager you were basically checking all Of the content yourself right That was me yeah yeah so that that must Have taken A lot of your time i guess well again uh Probably not as diligent in the quality Control As i should have been you know how it Goes you kind of get fast and and you
Know the other thing is is All the writers that take first off with The writers Um the freelancers that worked right Like their their content Is i don’t really check their content Like it’s They are they know exactly what to do They’re doing a great job so That doesn’t really get vetted and then Writer access I work with the same 20 to 30 writers Over and over So again they’re pretty well versed with With what i’m doing Um i really pay close attention when new Writers come aboard and Comb through but once they’ve been doing It And writing for my sites for several Months it’s You know they they do a good job yeah i Actually had that question in my notes That said like do you think don is Better than perfect person i got the Answer basically it’s like i mean You kind of need to to output this level Of content by it’s like It’s funny because i think we’re on the Other side and we’re often paying for it Like we want to release like really good Stuff but What what we pay for is in terms of how Much stuff we release so it’s like
And that’s why we tend to try to go for Bigger keywords which just change our Strategy etc Because we we can’t just rank for like All these small keywords that you’re Going after because it’s like The amount of time we’ve planned on each Piece and as a result we Have to like hit harder and then when we Go for higher keywords we need better Content because you won’t rank without Better content and it’s kind of that Thing so it’s quite um It’s like i it’s like talking to you i’m Always thinking about like Should we rebalance things to like relax A bit and then just be able to output More volume Uh and you know seeing from your main Site is definitely something that we Should be looking at Um it’s a balancing act i mean you know Like for instance i actually do a mix Like for instance I started this series with one Freelancer where the articles are 5 000 to 15 000 words like it’s Probably some of the best content and it And it’s it’s it’s highly recent it Takes her 40 to 50 hours to write one article And so i’m trying that on one of one of My sites and i’m i’m really Happy with it the weird thing is is the
Site like I’ve shoveled content into this thing And like these articles and The traffic’s still at a plateau so i’m You know fingers crossed i’m gonna break Through and that this stuff’s going to Start working but So i am doing some of the stuff that you And mark have Always pretty much done for the years Like the really high quality like Thorough extensive well-written and so I’m doing some of that as well Uh it’s a mix um i tend to Again it’s where the the freelancers That that would be more geared toward Them rather than an outfit like Writer access i see uh that I guess you do similar to us we split Our comment between like what we call Main content And support content yeah so what often Happens is we do like main content then We do keyword research From that piece of content we’ll Essentially try to find the topics we Mentioned and keywords related to that And although the pieces that we wouldn’t Write otherwise to maybe freelance Writers and things like that and try to Expand on that so if we do link building To that main content it just Radiates to like 10 12 pages and not Just that one page and try to get
A better bang for our buck pretty much It’s a great Yeah it’s kind of like kind of building A mini silo for each like Epic piece of content and trying to get To get more out of it pretty much Rather than just that one page only yeah For sure My next question is uh do you use On-page tools Because you see they’re like all the Hype right now yeah You know i it’s amazing i forgot that Part of the workflow because it’s Actually very important Um one nice reason uh or benefit of with A content manager at writer access is I’ve implemented that all the writers Now have access Login accounts to market muse and then They also use Ahrefs and um i use answer socratic i Think it’s answer socrates Some i don’t know this one actually it’s So it’s Sorry i forget it’s it’s like answer the Public but it’s free Okay okay uh no i think i got that wrong Uh what anyways the point is is they are It’s that answer socrates.com actually Yeah okay it’s it’s a great site it’s Like answer the public but it’s free for Like you’re not cut off at two searches A day so anyway
Um all the writers freelance writer Access regardless are going to Run content and keywords through all Three of those Uh software and market muse is Particularly helpful i think Market muse i find and and it’s like Surf i think what is it surfer seo or Seo surfer Very small right but very very similar But the point is it gives them a lot of Guidance in terms of What the word count should be uh Various subtopics to include in the Article keywords to include And so i i think it helps them it gives Them a lot of guidance and i’m not Saying that If you score it really well with either Of those tools that you’re going to be Guaranteed number one rankings that’s Not the point Of it the point is is that it’s it’s Going to make it better I believe that but it also gives writers Some guidance Parameters with which to go about it and I think it’s helpful for them I find it helpful when i write articles Actually i use it for myself i just find It helpful Again i’m not naive to think i’m gonna Hit number one just because i’m using This stuff
I’m not the only one using it but it’s It’s helpful so that’s part of the Workflow for everyone anyone who Produces a piece of content Uses those three tools as well do you Set up the brief for them in the tool or Because you know usually you need to Pick your competitors that is going to Like extract keyboards from and things Like that Uh i tend to like doing the briefs in Surfer seo so i get to pick The competitors it’s gonna take four so I don’t pick like competitors that Seem to rank because they’re really high Dr for example you know for other Reasons than the quality of their Content I try to focus on these pages to get the Data from and then i pick the The keywords in there as well so there’s No like stuff basically And uh i i tend to prefer doing that and That’s kind of like how i Do briefs for the writers i do that and I add the notes in the notes section Basically So i’m wondering if you do that or not No i don’t i don’t go to the extent that You do Basically what i do in the spreadsheet Is i’ll provide the keyword usually it’s A phrase that they are to use In these tools and leave it at that and
And see what so it’s already fairly long Long tail right it’s not a seed it’s It’s like pertinent to the article and Then So like market muse you don’t need to Input competitors Or any other info you just put in that One phrase and it’ll spit out what You know what you should do for that Article it’s very i try to keep it as Simple as possible i I don’t care to write briefs for every Article i’m ordering Right now yeah fair enough i mean fair Enough is the volume That’s the volume question i was asking It’s literally we’re getting ready Um are you screening for more content Providers all the time and like What are you looking for with a content Provider you’d be like Wanting to use regularly like how do you Find them basically yeah okay i It’s a good question i’ve used many many Content providers over the years And i’m i will use more uh writer access Has sort of been this Staple for years and there have been Times where i’ve Stopped using them and use other people And and so forth so yeah i’m always on Looking for a good content provider And i will try in fact i’m doing a case Study right now for fat stacks where
Am ordering the same topic from 37 Different content providers And i will provide the Pdf of every article provided with the Same instructions and the same keyword From every provider and people can Judge for themselves this is what you Get this is how much it cost per word And This is something i’ve been meaning to Do for a long time i did it with a few Agencies but i’ve never sort of gone Through and like Literally found every content provider i Could find on i’m sure I’m sure i missed some but anyways and Then people can judge for themselves um You know mentioning which content Providers i use especially The more service side where they have a Set number of writers It’s hard because i mention it and a lot Of readers will go order from it and They get they get they tell me they can Handle it But they can’t handle it and then the You know the service is garbage and a Lot of people are upset and i don’t Blame them for being upset because it’s A lot of money And so you know i i I could say writer access confidently Because they literally have it’s more of A broker they have tens of thousands of
Writers or at least Thousands anyway they can handle the Volume so what i thought i would do is Like Here you go here’s the 37 articles i got Yeah You pick which one do you like the best For the for the right and Leave it at that so but this is going to Take me a few weeks to Get out i’m just waiting for all the Articles right now We actually did that a long time ago but Only for like 10 i think or something Like that and yeah that was quite Interesting We’ve done that for link building Providers and that got us the most drama We ever got from Atari haka I got us the most drama like people Basically were upset because we Basically say well these links are not Very good for a lot of them So well so i think i like the idea of Like you decide Um and actually this case study is Interesting because we’re doing another Case study on a toy hacker right now is Going to bridge into our next topic Which is Uh ai content so right now we’re Actually doing a case study Basically the question we’re asking and
We’re working on this with mark is Is ai content now as good as shitty Writers or like Really bad writers and can you could you Replace this and so like there’s I have a blind uh video to shoot Tomorrow actually where we ordered the Same article From i think 203 star text broker And the other the same article was also Made on conversion.ai And then the the game is i have to pick Which one is the best for each topic And then we decide and then we also do a Survey with Actually if you want to participate and We can include you in there we can send You the articles and you can actually Tell us what you think i don’t know Which ones are which mark is organizing And the go the goal is going to Establish if ai Content can now match law at least the Low end of Human writers and so i wanted to know Why you have you tried this stuff and What’s your opinion on it Because it’s getting very popular these Days yes i have tried it and i Think uh i think i agree With you that it’s probably as good and In some cases better than Really bad writing so yeah i think it’s Already at that stage because i’ve tried
A handful of These tools i think the potential is I think i think it’s going to eventually Take over a lot of writing And i think it’s going to make the cost Of content go down But i also think the there’s still going To be some level I suppose of human involvement in terms Of you know some storytelling perhaps Um keyword selection what topics you Actually go for Um maybe in 20 years it’s not even going To matter anymore i don’t i don’t know But like looking You know in the in the near future here Um so yeah I think it’s interesting i think it’s Obviously a huge disrupter to what we’re Doing so We need to we need to pay attention to It and and And and and adopt it and use it rather Than Ignore it yeah i think for a long time i Was like guys it’s not ready it’s not Ready but now i think we’re getting to The point where it’s it’s starting to Have Proper practical uses and it’s like i Just checked one out Of the article and i think i can’t tell Which one is ai But i actually think i like the one
There that say i better Than the one from the writer And so yeah it’s something that uh that Could really change Like what do you think is gonna happen To the industry when ai content like in Three to five years When ai content kind of like starts Becoming something that will probably be More common especially for your approach To like a long tail queries right Well probably is very low competition And so this would be Even if your camera is not perfect this Would probably be the place where you Can Start sneaking some traffic from this Kind of like Automated ai content no Oh yeah for sure no question about it i Think it’s I think it’s going to be used Extensively um You know yeah you know i it’s hard to Say but i think it’s going to have a Major impact and i think Publishers are going to have to embrace It in in some way Uh or and i think we also have to wait And see how google is going to treat it Um right and see see what happens there I mean what what is what if google comes Out and says listen we We are going to do our best to filter
For ai content not that they’re going to Be able to But they might or they might or they Might say We’re all about ai content we’re Producing it and Yeah i was thinking about that you know Content you know so i think You know i i think as we just so many Unknowns but i think at the end of the Day i don’t think google is going to be Able to ultimately filter for it because It’s going to be Indecipherable to you know a lot of Topics And you know perhaps the whole Publishing model from the human Standpoint is going to be Almost exclusively in the realm of the Influencer style of Publishing where people are going to you Know if you want to produce content You know it’s like the journalists on Sub stack people go and they pay and They read because they want to read what They say like You know a icon is not going to replace Writers on sub stack that’s not going to Happen right that’s that’s a whole Different Level of writing but for your bread and Butter niche content Type stuff yeah and so i think Publishers if they want to have the
Human side of the writing involved are Going to have to think of ways to Be able to contribute something that ai Can’t do and that but people still want So but It’s gonna be a disrupter for sure big Time Yeah i think it’s like self-driving cars You know it’s like for uh It’s kind of like on that level for Content so it’s it’s interesting it’s Not ready yet but i can see that in like In two to three years we could be like Getting quite deep into that and It would like start being something that We use quite a lot basically Um to go back to your content production Is there any part of your content Production i didn’t cover in my Questions or like something that you you Do that We didn’t talk about well You know my course goes into it a lot But that’s the keyword research process That is so absolutely fundamental to What i do Uh i really seek out keywords where i Think i have a reasonable chance of Ranking without Link building i i don’t invest so it Looks like i invited underlining Building Yeah you know i looks like i invest a Lot in the content
And and i do but i also don’t have a Link building Budget at all right it’s it’s all Content but that means i need to find The keywords that i can rank without Investing in link building so That’s that’s the difference which means It all boils down to The keywords i go after it’s going to Make a big difference whether Content’s going to succeed so that’s a Huge part of it And i’m constantly evolving my processes And Um you know trying to find angles to Find really good keywords that Are going to work well but beyond that Once once the topics are on the sheets And The writers take over that’s pretty much The workflow um You know you know what’s been a Difficult aspect To automate is internal linking is still A time-consuming process and very very Manual Um you know requires a manual effort Rather than an automated effort And uh what do you use for that like you Just do it manually Oh yeah you know i actually like the Ahrefs Link opportunities i’m going to say yeah That’s helped a lot in terms of being
Able to hand a spreadsheet over to Vas to do it and so they actually do That But that’s not perfect either there are You know bad Opportunities listed um missed Opportunities so Again then i have i’ve really worked on Instructing Every level of people on how to find The most relevant articles that need to Get linked to and from When we publish new content and that’s Taken a while but i think i think it’s Working well Uh in terms of you know basically having The team Do that but again it that’s that’s a That’s a tough part of the whole content But it’s very Very important part so Uh one thing is internal linking as well That i think almost nobody talks about Is like It’s like it’s one thing to figure out How to build internal links and usually You want to build internal links on your Pages that would have the most links etc But you know as our sites age for us you Know these pages that maybe used to be Very important to us because we used to Rank really high maybe that’s not so Much the case anymore It happened it cycles you know and uh
And we still have like heavy internal Linking to these pages and we end up With like Our best pages having a lot of links to Pages that don’t really matter too much To us that much anymore and we’re just Linking all that page rank to these Pages that actually don’t really make us Money that much anymore And so there’s also for us one of the Challenges is the cleanup as well And kind of like identifying the pages That used to be important but are not so Important anymore And actually removing internal links so That the other internal links carry more Weight for the pages That we actually care about and it’s for Me that’d be nice to have a tool for That too Um maybe some kind of like internal link Ratio or something that tells you like How much traffic against how much how Many internal links or something For the pages so you can tell which ones You like overly internal link to and Maybe where you could redirect The page rank too basically but like That’s something that We’ve been uh we’ve been thinking a lot About actually Recently that’s that’s an interesting Topic i you know i am What do they call that like sculpting
Page rank sculpting was The old term years ago yeah i’ve read About that you know i kind of take a Different view About internal linking and taxonomies And entire website architecture and my View is To make it as easy as possible for Google to basically crawl the entire Site Which means i don’t really mind if i Have a High traffic article linking to a series Of articles that Are ever going to get a lot of traffic Um I almost just view that hey the easier i Make For google to just crawl through the Entire site the better it’s going to be For the entire site And that’s that’s a big reason i use a Lot of tags Like for my largest site i think i have About 250 tags But each one will have at least four or Five articles that apply to that tag and Some of them might have 30. so There’s no one-offs but i index these Tag archives which a lot of people would Tell you not to do but i do Index them and i index the category Pages as well and what that does is And then i i link from the home page to
What i call it it’s a manual Uh a nicer design of basically a site Map but instead of linking just to Individual articles i link to all the Tags and the categories Right from the home page so i’m creating This very very easy flow For google to rip through basically my Entire site and that’s what i do i i Totally get that the sculpting approach Like that also Makes sense um but this was i heard a Woman talk Um who was an in-house seo for a large Large Website at some conference i’ve only Been to one conference at the only Conference i Ever went to and it just made a lot of Sense that she said to To do this approach and that just made a Lot of sense so it’s what i’ve done I think i mean honestly like i’m not Google i can’t tell if it’s better or Worse I think it makes sense uh it also makes Sense to do that it’s basically you’re Creating these category pages It’s nice because the tags what you do Is you have the anchor text as well so You can give context through the anchor Text to the tag page Uh and then like basically links from That page just linked to relevant
Articles so it’s not Too bad we tend to because we build Again it ties back to how we build Websites and how you’re able to do large Volumes of content Because we build smaller sites we tend To build custom category pages as well Like we tend to build custom hub pages Etc If you check the auto design system like I show like how to build custom hub Pages etc And so that’s because our sites tend to Be quite a bit smaller than yours as Well and so as a result We can afford to you know micromanage These things a little bit more than than You do but i think for the size of the Size you build There’s no way i would have time to Build 250 pages So it totally makes sense it’s like it’s Just a it’s a it’s just A more minimalist version of what we’re Doing on a larger scale which You know makes sense for larger sites Pretty much um Another thing that i wanted to mention That we were talking about keyword Research a little bit i want to go back To it for a second Mostly because i wanted to talk about a Topic that you do a lot of cured Research
That i care a lot about recently which Is how unreliable keyword tools are These days And how the numbers are um we Tend it’s like We’ve basically been pushing the Envelope more and more in the sense that We used to write As i said because we don’t write that Much content we tend to pick like bigger Keywords but they were quite competitive And it’s like Sometimes we still felt it wasn’t worth The effort so we’re like okay let’s Downgrade a bit And now we’re at the point where we’re Writing for keywords that have zero Search volume in like eight drives so i Seem russian something like this and get Thousands and thousands of visits per Month Even though and and now we have this Game of guessing keywords based on Footprints Where we literally like identify some Cures that are big and just use our Brain to be like okay if this works You know if like you know best bicycle For Single leg people or something like that Works then maybe Best bicycle for people who have one Hand maybe works even though there’s no Search volume or something and so
You get the idea we just try to to guess Keywords and it’s been working really Really well for us so I just wanted to know how you feel about The data you get from the qr tools these Days And kind of the evolution over the past Two years when you know there used to be This avast data from others anti-virus That like Scm merchant hrfs etc used to get and They don’t get any more they stopped Selling it For privacy concerns and so like i feel Like the quality of qr tools has Decreased But you do that a lot so i wanted to Know how you feel about this yeah well i Because i have a different strategy than You um Basically i focus on any keyword that Will register as a keyword I will go after okay if it shows 0 to 10 Monthly search volume i don’t care i’m Totally good with that as long as It picks up as a keyword you know how When you search in ahrefs Um if it’s not a keyword it’ll just Basically say no data Right there’s no data yeah right so That’s not A registered keyword um does it Necessarily mean i’d ignore it if i Would still think it’s a it’s a
Worthwhile topic to cover i’ll do it i Wouldn’t expect much from it But if it picks up even if it says 0 to 10 per month I’m happy to grab that because my Experience it’s going to be way more Traffic than zero to ten like It’s just the way it is and so because I’ve noticed that in the past it’s like Well these are still good keywords They’re actually searches it’s almost Like The google auto suggests keywords Um you know if it picks up the phrase it Can be a eight word phrase that it picks Up When you’re sort of typing in there and That’s a key word to me And it probably would register 0 to 10 In ahrefs but i don’t care because it’s Still A search it’s still searched by people And probably more than it reported so i In fact i filter out for Like high difficulty um You know and just go straight for the Really really long tail Simpler stuff and that it’s been working For me Yeah i mean we’re essentially that’s What we found as well it’s like Something that we’ve done over the last Few years and I really feel keyword data has
Deteriorated quite significantly since This large amount of data sold by avast Uh is not sold to keyword tools anymore And it’s kind of like it’s interesting Because You know they still have all the Historical data that was sold to them But now this data is coming onto In a few months it’s going to be two Years actually that they haven’t Received data from them anymore and so Like all the click data and all that Stuff you know for keywords It’s basically getting outdated at this Point and and i’m not sure they have Other data sources for this so it makes Me Da even more what i see in the keyword Tool so it’s kind of nice to hear That uh i think you’ve been doing that For longer than us but Uh to hear you confirm that basically i Always say that Like ahrefs and similar are guidelines They’re not You know anything you could count on 100 I get a lot of good ideas as well like I’ll look at my own analytics And look at what’s ranking and what’s Doing well and i’ll i’ll figure out a Whole bunch of new topics to cover Just based on topics that are already Ranking like that are very similar but They’re
They’re different search intents so you Know it’s still It’s still actually thinking about it Like i i can I can find like one good keyword and Then i’ll I’ll be able to turn that just thinking About the topic into another 10 articles So it’s really a mix of the tools and Just Coming up with ideas on your own Yeah i agree um but i think it’s Important because a lot of beginners Who start with this they tend to you Know treat what the data they get from These big qr tools as ghost spell where It’s like this is the truth etc It’s quite important to understand that The data is like it’s very very very Rounded and Quite often wrong to be honest uh when i Look at like top pages in hrs versus top Pages in analytics for example You know it gets it about like 50 to 60 Right Yeah there’s still like a quite a bit That i missed you know so it’s like You need to be a little bit careful and The people who understand the limits of The tools are tend to be the people who Will be the smartest at picking topics As well so i think it’s From what i found so i think it’s quite Interesting
Um i wanted to close this interview Um going back to kind of like a broader Or more open question We talked about ai content but in General With things like bigger bigger like Publisher sites You know kind of like traditional Publishers getting more into the realm Of building websites and People like dot dash also pushing in This industry et cetera i like to know What your vision is of this industry in Three to five years and Do you still think it’s going to be as Easy to start websites as like small Publishers like most people who are Listening to this podcast And reach the level of success like You’ve achieved for example on your main Site like How do you feel about this whole Direction of where we’re going Yeah i i think in i think the Whether it’s more difficult to start or Not I think it’s always kind of been the Same and the reason i say that is yes There’s more competition Always as more and more publishers Get on board but at the same time you Know now Like when i don’t know about you but When i started like the mobile phone
Wasn’t really a source of traffic right Which meant Like as the phone has become so popular Like Overall traffic and let’s say page views In the world are probably like tenfold Of what they were You know 10 years ago so there’s a lot More Audience and a lot more traffic so you Know I i view that as like i still think it’s A good opportunity i think it Anybody’s doing this because i’ve got a Fast facts forum Where we’ve got a lot of people who are Just starting out and there are people Who are getting great results in 12 Months With the the similar strategy that i’m Using there’s also people on there that Do more of what you and mark do and They’re getting good results as well Going for the higher search so um yeah It’s it’s more competitive but there’s a Larger audience out there and i think it Just boils down Like literally there are so many Keywords there’s probably more keywords Out there that haven’t been covered And that there isn’t an article for then There there is like most websites tend To Kind of cover the same stuff um the key
Is Finding those topics that people haven’t Covered and there are literally Millions of them and it’s just trying Well billions It’s a matter of of finding them and That’s going to give you a leg in Um it’s sort of like your big break once You start getting really good traffic For a particular topic to a new site That sort of really helps cement and Establish a site to grow from there i’ve Found so it’s it’s just a matter of Of getting that first strike so i think I think there’s Future potential i think ai’s gonna be Disrupter i really don’t know how but You know just just as we were talking About it um You know i was thinking like you know Content like Product reviews for instance i tend to Veer from them But you know is is ai going to be able To Do a review say like uh the wire cutter Based on their testing various products And going through it I think there’s a type of a piece of Content that is Going to still require um The human input and there’s gonna be Lots of those and You know i don’t do a lot of the review
Stuff but i think that’s just one Example where You know you can distinguish the two um I you know what i also am excited about How High the valuations are for websites Like It wasn’t that long ago where like 25 Was 25 Yeah it was the industry standard and Now we’re we’re pushing like i got a 45 Multiple On on most of my sites when i sold them Which is pretty high up i’m very happy With that type of multiple i mean that’s Almost Like doubling the actual sale value of Websites from Not too many years ago which which goes To show that This is a uh definitely a a growing Sort of industry and a lot more money is Getting poured into it so I agree so it’s kind of like also Offsetting the The difficulty because it’s like it’s Harder but you also get paid out more When you make it work Um so i think i mean i agree with you i Think the In terms of the ai content stuff it’s Like i i think it’s going to just force People to level up their content to do Yeah
As you said like add the value that the Ai cannot add But maybe low level writers have they Could be replaced basically Uh i can see oh yeah 100 I agree with you there uh so i i think That’s what’s gonna happen i think you Know when i talked about main content And support content Yeah i could see your main content being This kind of like really high Well-crafted content You know human-made etc and you just use Ai to brainstorm All the sub-topics and make some Sub-pages below that and grab some Traffic you know I can see i can see that strategy coming In For people to build sites and it’s i Mean it’s nice as a site builder you get To focus on like really cool projects For your content and build some cool Stuff And you have the ai do the rest provided You can still make good money i think It’s gonna be a it’s gonna be a fun job Actually Um so i’m i’m all for it if it works out That way Um anything else that you wanted to talk About that we didn’t cover Uh no it was stuff great questions got Me thinking
About what i’m doing so i appreciate it All right well i guess it’s a mini Mastermind as well um Okay uh well i just want to thank you For coming and we are going to be Putting a link to John’s course below in the description Or in the description of the podcast if You’re listening so you can go check This out And i want you to thank you for coming I’m sure there will be a third podcast In Not too long it’s always great Discussions when we talk so thank you For coming john And we really appreciate have a good Week i guess Yeah thanks very much guy i enjoyed it [Music] You