[Music] When we planned this series of podcasts We jumped onto our facebook groups To ask our members what they wanted us To cover next and one of the topics that Emerged That people were asking about is what Differentiates the people that make it To Build sites full time and make it their Real lifestyle Compared to people that don’t and the Amateurs so in today’s episode Mark and i are going to be answering This question in depth so that you know What you need to do to make it to Being a full-time site builder let’s get Started [Music] Hello welcome to the attorney hacker Podcast i’m just going to get to what i Was waiting for how’s it going mark Fantastic as always thanks cool though So now that it’s out of the way Uh we’re actually gonna jump into the Topic because probably like people don’t Care that much Uh so let’s jump into um the topic but i Think i wanted to like go back to our Experience actually which is Uh how long has it been since we Actually been working on just our own Sites no Client work no agency or anything uh
Over six years now well Actually seven years because we there Was a bit of an overlap in 2013. seven years we stopped the agency No No we stopped it stopped at the end of Uh 2014 Start 2015 and then but for two years Prior to that Uh we’re working on our own size but We’re not full time so it’s like that’s Kind of the endurance here it’s like So that is kind of and that was my next Question like what is What do you think was the biggest shift From essentially having it wasn’t a job We had our own business but it was more Of a It was so like a job yeah and then What changed the most between us Focusing full time now versus Us not being able to focus full time Before Um that is a tough question Uh it wasn’t really there wasn’t really A cliff edge moment they’re like oh okay Now we’re professionals uh It was still it was a very sort of Gradual process and even now there’s we Still catch ourselves doing Things which are like really probably Not not what we should be Should be doing so i think it’s just Like a a thing that evolves
Bit by bit over time i think for me is The focus actually Just the fact that um like a large shell Of my mind was focused on Keeping the agency running climb Projects thinking about stuff like Sales as well all of that was uh It’s like the last thing i wanted to do At the end of the day is work on another Website It’s a kind of like you know like feel Like uh baristas don’t drink coffee you Know and it’s um It was kind of the same and i feel that Um Now i can use like that price like i Call it prime energy it’s like the Beginning of the day i have like 24 Hours when i’m like doing a lot And slowly throughout the day just Decreases in productivity And like that prime time was dedicated To Other things to my the main breadwinner Let’s say And i can be dedicated to our own Projects and that has Had a massive impact i’d say not on How much we’ve done but rather on how Well we do things like i’m willing to To spend more attention and effort onto The things that Uh when i have my main focus time on you Know i would i would say a little bit
Differently actually so There’s definitely an element of when You’re full time on something with no Other business no other distractions and Other work You can focus on a lot more and it’s you Just get more done I do feel though that in the early days You know the first few years of us doing This We we were kind of like spinning tires a Little bit on certain projects And uh we we didn’t really i wouldn’t Say we’re like being super efficient at It and it didn’t feel like a kind of Well-oiled machine it was a bit kind of Scatter gun yeah but the progress was Much faster as soon as you went full Time like it allowed the progress It did it unlocked the progress i would Say is true But the the progress was very slow and Gradual there’s been a few Points over the over the last of a few Years Where we’ve started to like really focus On just doing a few things very very Well And like saying no to a lot of other Stuff that I feel has like contributed much much More towards our Our growth though you could argue that That it’s easy to say that because if
You’re If your site’s already doing well and You grow it’s it’s it’s Massive but you know if you’re starting From zero or 500 bucks a month and you grow up 50 Percent it’s 50 Is a lot but it’s not really that much At that level so Maybe there’s an element of that in play It’s just a perspective that Makes you feel that i feel like we Progressed out actually uh anyway i’m Just gonna do a plug because i haven’t Done it in like i think I was checking like 20 weeks or Something like basically if you want to Go from being amateur to a pro we Actually have a free training on Autohackertraining.com Uh there will be the url if you’re Watching on youtube uh it’s a free Webinar i’ve done There’s two hours of training uh we do Actually pitch Our beginners course at the end but the Free training Is actually better than some paid Trainings i’ve seen around like we Actually put a lot of effort into that Uh so go check that out if you are Interested in that because Uh a lot of people have had a lot of Value for that but anyway
Let’s jump into the meat of the podcast Now and we’re essentially going to go Through different things that we think Pros are doing differently from people Who are just getting started or amateurs People who haven’t done well yet Uh and maybe that’s going to maybe Create some kind of mind shift in some People and make them do things a little Bit differently which would be Great even if it changes the life of Like a few people this podcast will be Worth it Um so the first thing i want to talk About is mindset and i think it’s Uh one of the most important things uh Much more than which plugins you’re Using on wordpress Or like how fast is your website or all Of that I think uh one of the main differences Is like um It’s a one thing that really helps me Right it’s like when when i talk about Authority hack at people they’re like oh You need a case study you need to show People uh how how That and i’m like okay sure but like There’s been a lot i mean if you look at Someone like spencer for example in Niche process he’s done Four case studies that are all have been Fairly successful for example Uh neil patel has done one pedestrian
Has done several Et cetera do you you really need another Case study to believe that this model Can work You really needed that and if you do Then you’re definitely on the amateur Side like i don’t think this business Model needs to be proven again Just go check the marketplaces go check Empire flipper and flippa etc And like fe international sites that Sell for six seven figures Sell every single day on these platforms And these are sites like Uh the sites that you see in this case Study so you really need another case Study to Build up that confidence that it still Works in 2020 yes it still works like it Worked in 2019 and 2018 and 2017 and For many many years and to be honest It’s not like it’s just gonna boom drop All of a sudden it might Fluctuate a little bit the business Model but it’s not like it’s It’s you need to see that if it walks Again in the last six months and i feel Like when you look at this report it’s Crazy But the kind of questions that we get i Just i i had um Miles back there was on this podcast uh A few months back And he he did a it was a 12-month case
Study Uh for for a brand new site in a niche I’ve never been in And one really interesting thing that Surprised me a lot was that when he Announced it He had all these people coming to him Saying they’re going to stop what They’re Doing and wait until he does his case Study to make sure they do it right And that just it honestly blew my mind That that was even like a possibility It’s procrastination it’s just finally An excuse to do nothing Um and then it is procrastination and Lack of self-confidence which Uh i think is one of the things that the Pros have it’s like they understand they Are they know that They will make us like when we start a New site i have no doubt we’ll make it Work the question is like how long And how much um but but like making it Work i have no doubt that we have not Failed the site in a really long time Basically that we actually tried Uh properly and it’s like and again as You check the marketplaces and you check The facebook groups and you Like you know hundreds of people are Making this work today And so no you do not need another case Study to believe that this works again
And if you do then you’re secretly Procrastinating and finding You know it’s like i studied like i was Studying negotiation in hong kong And the guy was like honestly one of the Best teachers i’ve ever had He was like negotiating outsourcing Contracts for general motors etc And one of the negotiation tactics that He really liked Was blaming it on the third party that You have no control over so like people Would want you to agree to something They’d be like hey can you Agree to this price or something and Then so that you could go further in the Negotiation you would say yes but if And then you put a condition that you Have no control over so yes but if my Boss says yes when i go back to the Office Uh yes but if that and what it allows You to do is put a delay on things And essentially get things that you Won’t drink that time While um giving the feeling to people That they actually got what they wanted In negotiation And then you can just trigger that well My boss said no and then you just take It off And then and then that’s it you took What you wanted from the negotiation While giving a fake win to the or to the
To the opposing party And so this is exactly what people are Doing when they’re asking for another Case study They are just putting it on the third Party and then they just If that is that so if that case study uh Is not absolutely exceptional they’ll Find a good reason to not do it and not Do anything and not make it work even Though it’s just like one side in the Hundreds that are being built all the Time Or or if it’s a public case study They’ll copy the the kickstarter Site and just try and make another Version of it So they can they can replicate the the Success exactly so Please yeah if you do like it you do not Need another case and that’s one of the Reasons i don’t do it as well because The truth is i don’t want to attract These people um Um i feel i feel like um i feel i’d Rather Talk about practical tactics and and Focus on action takers so focusing on That i think another thing uh that Differentiates Amateurs from pros is ambition um I think the amateurs just want to make a Living they just want to pay the bill They’re like oh it’d be great if i made
A thousand dollars a month etcetera Or else the pros are like well i want to Build something that’s much bigger et Cetera it’s not they don’t just want to Pay their rent they want to actually Build a company Um and it’s one of these things right It’s like i like to take the example of A spacex for that because Spacex wants to go to mars right and um Going to mars is a high ambition um but the thing Is Even if spacex never makes it to mars But manages to send people on the moon That stay on the moon It’s still the greatest achievement of a Private company pretty much ever Um like only governments have managed to Do that on government budget et cetera It’s like as As an achievement it’s amazing and it’s It’s one of these things aim for miles And if you make it to the moon you Already it’s already amazing so if you Even if you’re aiming to to build a Really great company but you only Managed to like Get a really cool lifestyle out of it But not build a company of 300 employees Still pretty good but if you aim to just Make a living and you don’t make it Then you’re going to make 500 a month And you’re going to be one of these
People that’s making 500 bucks a month And is an amateur and is doing it as a Side project So i think you know when you pick your Niche when you hire people et cetera Having that like Kind of framework in your head that you Want to build something bigger than what You need Will influence your decisions in a way That will make you more successful Yeah i mean i think i think like the Pros They’re definitely aiming higher uh We’ve Rejected quite a few niches which i Think would be fantastic niches really Easy to to do Very well the dna testing we took the Dna testing one yeah uh so like 23 and Me and all these there’s there’s a few Sites out there now doing it Uh like reviewing them and um i’m making Affiliate commissions on On them uh but i i think that would be Really easy to To create site and just dominate it but You know The the market size there is pretty Small the commission’s pretty low we We reckoned you know high four figures Low five figures probably i think it’s Good as a portfolio like if you have a Portfolio of like four or five sites
And you want to like run multiple sites And do pure seo games maybe like it can Be One of them uh if it’s it’s not a main Project it’s too small for that i think Yeah so i mean like if we’re starting a New site i’m I’m almost certain that we’re going to To make it work um The only areas of which i wouldn’t be Confident is something like casino or Um or some like really sketchy Industries Uh where you can’t use like the Traditional tactics and it’s all black Hat or whatever But in general you know we’re we’re Aiming high we’re looking at High paying offers uh how much money There is in the space and That’s that’s driving a lot of our our Decision making because Because it you know it was really Motivating to Compete in an in a niche like that which Is Which is super competitive one other Thing i would say actually about uh Like a pro mindset is you know How often do you read other internet Marketing blogs Yeah not a lot i mean i skimmed through The title and if something seems Interesting maybe i do but like
Saying like i always um blame myself for Not doing it But like every time i go back i’m like So It’s a it’s a balance right you have to It’s good to consume information which Other people are publicly sharing and That that’s fantastic Um but it’s very easy to go overboard And get into this kind of like Learning yeah yeah so you you know like Back in the day There’s these people on like warrior Forum and all they do is they’re super Active on the forum They read everything they have answers To every everything that everyone’s Saying but They don’t have their own business they Maybe make a few hundred bucks a month They’re not not really doing it They’re just talking about it the whole Time and you have to be careful not to Like get sucked into To that kind of um mindset or mentality Um and another one is like communities And groups Um like i’m sorry for everyone who’s Like super active in our groups Um that’s that’s great i love it um but The peop the the people who are do who Are doing that and are also doing Uh very well on their sites um are few And far between let’s be honest
It’s just a glimpse here really um But uh but yeah i and one thing i wanted To say as well Last one for the mindset is the pros are Willing to work with Uh incomplete information and understand The ability to deal with that like we Talked about this for cuba tools for Example None of the qr tools are accurate in Terms of number of traffic and search Volume etc like It’s all very uh inaccurate numbers and Then and and i see it’s kind of like a Little bit because we have this Beginners group And we have this small advanced group And as soon as we release that podcast Episode when we talk about uh keyword Tools It’s the beginner’s group that went to Flames you know and people like oh how Can we how can we plan our site Uh if we don’t have correct information And it’s like i don’t know how i’m gonna Do this it’s like uh i i’m gonna start Like a lot of questioning etc or as the Pros just like kept going business as Usual i understood That um it was always the case anyway It’s just that we’re just putting the Spotlight on this but really it’s been Around for a long time And um and and it’s like it’s part of
Just taking any kind of higher position Even In in business etc is dealing with Uncertainty and measuring risk And uh if you’ve never done that it’s Very scary and then as you Progress and gain experience then you Get more and more comfortable with it And this this essentially uh Self-confidence Uh it allows you to take action a lot Faster and uh Take more opportunities and correct any Any mistakes you make which is often an Easier thing to do is make the mistake Correct it further down once you have More experience or information rather Than Waiting years to like try and figure out How to do it perfectly and not Not getting off the ground exactly you Take action then you fix it rather than Just wait till you actually know Exactly perfectly because you probably Never know and it’s the same as the case Study it’s exactly the same thing it’s Like Uh if you need another case study that’s Less than six months old to believe that This business model can work I’m sorry but you’re probably not going To do that well um anyway Let’s jump on to the next one which is Actually choosing a niche um
Go ahead what is the difference between Amateurs and pro in your opinion Uh so for an amateur you’re Typically targeting low competition Niches so you want to have a certainty That this is going to work That’s i would say your your primary Goal you don’t want to overshoot And you know nobody wants to overshoot But you just don’t really have that same Mentality of i can make i can make this Work it’s going to work Uh the the doubt is certainly there At this stage and this can often lead to Subpar decision making Um in terms of uh of choosing niches Which are Low competition but also low potential Ceiling and low potential potential Profit Often people will stick to what they Know so if they have a particular hobby Or experience and doing a certain thing Or a certain area They’ll they’ll choose that as the Default and they won’t explore What other options there are they won’t Compare their own The niche that they want to go into to Other ones out there to get a feel for You know are there a lot of products To promote here what’s the monetization What’s the traffic potential So i think really a pro would approach
Something completely objectively knowing That Even if they’re interested in it you Know certainly take that into account Because it’s going to help you but It’s not the be-all and end-all of the Decision-making process for For choosing a niche you know you always Bring in writers or experts to to create The content you don’t need to know this Stuff I would say as a as a pro you’re Following the money first and foremost Um you’re not afraid to Go into niches which are competitive um Actually one thing i see a lot of Amateurs do is they’ll they’ll try and Find a niche that no one else has done Which is either which is either because There’s no money in it or it’s like such A small Sub sub subset of a niche that uh There’s no other site so they oh Nobody’s done this i’m the first That’s a good thing but that’s almost Always A bad thing because if no one else is Doing it chances are 99.9 of the time there’s no money there Uh when it comes to To authority sites at least so be very Very Very very careful of that um In terms of like pros you know the types
Of niches i’m talking about here is like Credit cards or i’m thinking um hosting Uh affiliate there’s like a a really Popular one these days And this ludicrously competitive in both Those spaces but Man the amount of payouts and money That’s available is Is just just crazy so certainly It takes someone with a bit more i think Experience to tackle something like that I i would not go to Go in in those kind of niches as a Beginner and i think Ultimately that’s it’s all about the Confidence in your ability to Make any niche work which is Going to determine you know which which Side of the fence you’re on with this Yeah i think i think one main difference For me is like the The amateurs focus on how much traffic They might be able to get in the niche And the pros focus on how much money They might be able to make per sale Um and i i mentioned that in the case Study post of the site result The reason we grew it so fast is because Are we in terms of revenues because well The payout was really high Per cell and so we didn’t need to make That many sales to get to five figures Per month Of revenue and uh if we were selling
Stuff on amazon it would definitely not Be This level of revenue it would probably Be ten times less or something like that Um and it’s something that people still Struggle to get it’s like A lot of people in english are really Really into seo but very very little Into monetization And they never really get to learn the Networks the offers The niches um how to negotiate Better payments all these things which Are equally important to your ability to Get traffic and often more i mean we Were able to increase our revenue by Like 30 or 40 percent In one month just because of these Things without getting really more Traffic or anything like that so Um if you want to get if you want to do Better Um you need to learn this world of if You want to do affiliate marketing Affiliate marketing if you want to do Funnels funnels etc like you can just Learn How to get traffic from seo and just Look at keywords and be like that’s how I pick a niche Um that is not how you do that it’s just One part of the Equation the way the money you make is Traffic you get multiplied by conversion
Rate multiplied by payout And then and so the traffic you get is One of these three Uh the the conversion rate is going to Be based on cro and the actual offers You promote And then the payout is going to be based On well the offers you promote Your ability to negotiate higher payouts Um so It’s that that’s it a pro considers all These three options Newbies focus on just seo and keywords Which And i can see it you know when we talk About hardcore affiliate stuff that does Not involve seo I see that podcast download numbers just Go down And then as soon as we go back to like How to get feature snippets or something Like that Then the download numbers go crazy up And if you’re one of these people that’s Just keeping the podcast Uh when we are talking about these Things well then i’ll put you If you ask me objectively i’ll put your Money i’m at the side Um unless you’re like really really good At this other stuff and then you don’t Need it that’s possible too Um but i i think most people that keep It i’m more in that side and so what i’m
Saying by that is uh yeah you need to Focus on these other things that are not Seo if you want to make good money Because seo does not pay the bills All right so jump on uh planning the Website And um it’s also one of these things i Mean if you’ve been through the Authorization system I’m doing that part and people are kind Of amazed at how long that part is It’s funny because i’m doing updates now It’s like even longer but by a lot So it’s getting it’s getting quite crazy Actually um But people will realize that i i love Planning and we don’t even buy our Domain names Um before we even know every single page We’re going to do on the website for Pretty much the first year Um like one of the recent sites that we Did i planned 200 pages before we bought The domain name for example that was Uh how much i knew about this and I was willing to spend more than months Planning it properly Um because i knew that If i know exactly where i want to be Then it’s really easy first of all to Instruct it to other people so when we Build a team etc it’s very Simple to explain and be like and also i Allowed me to do when i planned this
Much is actually to Identify strategically which sections we Needed it’s like oh this section is Easier to get links oh this section Is easier to rank because these are like Easy vs keywords etc and we were able to Kind of like balance depending on the Performance of the site and how We wanted to do but you can only do that If you spend a lot of time in planning And what amateurs do Is they go on team forest they get Excited by some wordpress team although Team forest is not releasing anymore um They’re whatever They’re just uh ceo that’s what we did Back in the day Yeah it’s not really what people do Anymore like it’s like you know it’s Like uh It’s like when you think that um that Color shouldn’t sell on facebook they’re Not you know they’re on tiktoken on Snapchat now It’s like um so that’s the thing it’s Like You need to be able to spend a lot of Time on spreadsheets you need to be Willing to spend a lot of time on Playing monetization going back to the Previous one as well understanding like How you’re going to make money et cetera Um and you you also need to be willing To pay
For the best possible information and That’s also one of these blowouts that Came Out with us saying that qr tools are not That accurate anymore especially ahrefs Because they trust Is essentially on the most expensive Side of the keyboard tool spectrum apart From some enterprise tool Uh tools but uh and and people were Surprised that we said that despite the Fact that Yeah it is it got worse jump shot it Doesn’t sell them data anymore it got Worse Um we’re still willing to use that and The truth is i’ve actually retested Pretty much all keyword tools to be able To say that publicly So i spent time on keyword finder i Spent time on seo merch i spent time On ubersuggest i spent time on sub stats Like all of these on premium accounts Etc i tried all of it Um and in the end i just went back to Hrx despite the fact that it was worse And Um pros will understand that they’re Willing to spend You know an extra few hundred bucks to Get better data and better planning so That they actually Uh even if it increases their chances of Success by five or ten percent
It’s it’s so expensive to pay back about Content I mean how much does content cost when You outsource it how much do links cost Like buying a link from a link seller is 150 bucks per link for like a Very average link um and then buying a Piece of content if you want someone That’s not complete crap and actually Will spend the time to do a good piece Of content It’s also in the three figures for a Good piece of content so You know when people complain about Spending 200 bucks on hrs i’m like I i don’t get it you know it’s like it’s Uh i’m i’m i’m happy to spend that money Compared to how much it costs to Actually put the website together and if It helps me make five to ten percent Better decisions on 200 pages when i Plan It’s absolutely also cost and so yeah It’s like um I think me i think beginners are trying To look for free tools and Free all of that et cetera and and i Think it surprises a lot of people when We go in the other system as well And we actually recommend people pay for An expensive tool uh for keyword Research when a lot of competitors will Be like oh you can do it for free with Google autocomplete and stuff like that
Um and the fact is that Um from what i’ve seen we have quite a Few more Success stories with our course because People are actually relying on hard data Versus actually just trying to to skip It out quickly and go Uh and go fast and and go with lower Quality data so i Will stick to that i think people should Invest in data it’s not that expensive Compared to the grand scheme of things And pros understand that and we are Willing to spend the time and the money Amateurs are usually Willing to just keep into logging into WordPress and play with plugins etc Let’s jump on to the next point uh which Is also building your site and tag setup And text setup sorry And that’s where the pros are more Conservative than the amateurs i think The pros are willing to spend money on The keyword tools and all of that And uh the amateurs are more willing to Spend money on Fancy plugins that do fancy things and Automate things etc Whereas the pros tend to be very Conservative with a site setup Many pros tend to use not even gutenberg But the Original wordpress editor because they Want the code to be slightly cleaner etc
And in general when you’re pro you don’t Want to use Any tool that’s less than two or three Years old and has a proven track record Of Updating their tool their plug-in and They’re like a good company and You don’t jump into these things you let Other people figure this this stuff out And break their site And you keep things simple with really Basic branding and just like Focus on putting content and building Links whereas amateurs will Look for the latest plugin that does That little trick that’s kind of Interesting or whatever like you know Faq Uh faq snippets or something uh they’re Also obsessed with page feed usually Like Um a lot of people that i know that are Doing really well i mean For the people that run us they already Don’t have great page speed Um because well ads destroy it um but Even for those who don’t run us they Have okay page speed but It’s not the absolute best page fit and People that make the most money don’t Have the fastest sites Go on mashable.com and all these sites That uh like like Whatever like go on these massive media
Sites they are not the fastest sites in The world and they actually get the most Traffic It’s uh it’s purely because Page speed is a very very measurable Message it’s the one thing that’s Whereas content quality Or uh you know these these kind of other Other things Which are just inherently impossible to To measure and you can’t Get tools that that measure them it Feels like you’re making progress if you Get your Site speed from a d to a b or whatever But How much difference is that actually Going to make to your bottom line when When we have increased page speed it Really there’s there’s been a few Occasions when you know Little things have improved here and There and yes it’s nice to have Uh maybe like the time on site Improvements you don’t see revenue Movies But honestly like not it’s it’s just so Far down the priority list that Um and i think people put a much higher Importance on it than than it actually Deserves Yeah it’s i think you and is the same For the tools and the features et cetera Like
You can build the site with like the Free use generatepress Uh we like elementor so we can do Everything design uh and it’s like It’s not too bad for the page field and And the basic wordpress hosting you Don’t need All these fancy tools and plugins etc And um And as i said the pros only invest in Tried and tested tools versus new tools Like if you are Getting excited for a new iem tool again It’s like And that’s why we don’t do these promos By the way that’s why we very very Rarely we promoted link whisper not long Ago but It’s almost two years old now and They’ve actually proven that they wanted To update because i did the review I kind of like trashed a bit of it and Then they actually fixed a lot of the Stuff i said wasn’t very good Um so we did promote these guys but we Very rarely promote tools because of That because Um the people that do that that promote A new tool every every two weeks They’re the people that want to keep you Running on that shiny object and want to Keep you being amateurs It’s not what’s gonna make you money or Successful et cetera and it’s a little
Bit unfortunate for us because You know we’d make so much more money Yeah yeah first and foremost but You know it’s very difficult to just sit Here every single week and say hey guys Just like Build content build links you know do do The basics more and more and more Like there’s a kind of element it’s like The news right you know if You if there’s a day when like Everything in the world is fine and Normal There’s no headlines saying that it’s Always like something wrong or something New or something different You know it’s uh like sensationalized Uh so i mean but the core honestly of Of building businesses building online Businesses like this It’s very it’s very simple it’s very Grindy it’s very boring it’s very Repetitive Uh and and and that’s i think a huge Difference it’s the same for all seo News by the way like you know Um i’ll take an example they change to Nofollow right it’s like they changed From from nofollow to really cool Sponsored and All of that um has it changed anything To you because it hasn’t changed Anything for us Whatsoever and um and and it was all
Over the news and people were like oh my God it’s going to change everything Etc and it’s like there’s a lot of these Things that Are get sensationalized because people Make a living publishing these things And promoting them um but really again Like It’s a point one percent change for These things you know if you’re out There Refreshing all of the seo news websites Looking for like the latest tip or the Latest thing to come in like Honestly it’s such a waste of time Nobody At a high level is is paying much Attention to to those kinds of sites Because They just feed off of like irrelevant Information that’s not going to make any Difference to To what you’re doing day in day out and There’s all this kind of like Sensationalized Stuff which gets clicks and which has Like titles which Don’t really communicate the the meaning And like there’s that one we did a whole Podcast on it uh On guest posting being this thing is Dead yeah Yeah and it was just like oh god They’re just doing this to get clicks
You know these are another traps right It’s like this is this is what And it’s like the thing is like amateurs Read these things and just drop Everything Um i’m like they’re like oh then then I’m not gonna do guest posting anymore It’s all over Uh same recently right it’s like i think John will have said like oh i only see Any guest posting is basically gray hat Or something like this And people just everyone stopped at this Point um The thing is like if you run a clean Guest posting campaign i have yet to see A site that actually gets penalized or Loses rankings for that therefore in Their enforcement that’s not exactly It’s maybe a it’s like a philosophical Debate versus reality Um which is kind of entertaining when You’re like the communication for Webmasters so it’s like again you have To create content so you can have these Philosophical debates I’m not necessarily very much in phase With real life Um and and the people that are in the Office like looking for spam etc and Like they’re definitely not looking for Like If you have a really high quality guest Post on the good side and there’s a
Default link i’m pretty sure you’ll be Fine you know Kind of like uh it reminds me of a lot So here in scotland A couple years ago they introduced 20 Mile per hour speed limits in The city center and it’s very difficult To drive that slowly Um in in built-up areas i mean all these Errors used to be 30 30 miles an hour so It’s kind of like It’s go i equate google to to the Government in In that sense so that they make these Rules and you say you shouldn’t do this But then there’s like what the rules say And what they say and like How life actually goes on and what People actually do those are Those are not always the same so Interpreting the nuances of Is really difficult uh and certainly if You if you read Uh some article or some quote even by John mueller himself that says you know Don’t do this You know you can’t just take everything At face value You have to kind of weigh things up and Interpret things as well As i’ve always said there’s the rules And there’s the enforcement line you Know And then these are two completely
Different lines and And i think it’s uh it’s so it’s a Nuance that a lot of people Play on to gain competitive advantage um Where There will be a rule that’s really Restrictive but the enforcement is much Further And then there’s the people that Actually obey by the rule these people Tend to actually lose an advantage Against the people that understand what The enforcement line is and actually use Things to their full potential which is An argument for doing gray hat seo by The way Uh you could essentially say that uh After that it’s like The enforcement line uh is probably Somewhere in between Uh it’s probably somewhere in the light Gray or something like this for google But they will give you the rules that The pure pure white white is the white Uh i think so i think there’s also a Subset of People often authors for for big Websites Who they have a very negative view about Everything that’s going on in the world Like almost like Borderline conspiracy theory uh so Whenever something comes along they try And make like a big deal about it and
Like it’s it’s always negative oh we Have to stop this or this is a problem Or you know watch out for this Uh when it’s back yeah when in fact that You know the vast majority of the time Life goes on and Stuff continues working the way it Always has been pretty much Uh so you should do what tim ferriss Says and just don’t read the news but Get a friend to Tell you the news basically um that’s What he’s going for work week I think uh and talking about that um Let’s talk about building links and i’ll Let you is it building links next no It’s creating content go ahead is that That’s the one Uh so the amateur way of creating Content is first of all you write Everything yourself And i’m not completely against writing Stuff yourself i mean brian dean perfect Example He he writes it all himself although he Has a lot of help along the way In various parts of that um but that’s Maybe like the best example of someone i Would say who who writes their own Own content but the vast majority of Marketers who are Building you know web businesses they’re Not writing their own content because It’s such a time sync right
If you have to write 100 articles you Know that’s that’s Months it’s going to take you at best Uh so as a professional you’re From day one as you’re planning your Content out you’re already like your job Ads out you’re you’re trying to hire Higher writers to to create content for You so You’re buying back a lot of time by Doing this I would also say an amateur way of Thinking about this is You have quite an unstructured approach To content so You’ll you’ll think of it more as like a Blog uh as like a personal blog so i’ll Write oh hey i fancy writing an article About this today But i mean when is the last time we’ve Ever had that That a decision like that never or five Plus years ago because it’s always Any content we’re creating for any of Our sites is based on Keyword research and planning and like What where there’s volume where there’s An opportunity Right it’s it’s less kind of news Focused It’s the last oh i i just went on Holiday and i’m gonna write seven things Uh i learned we do that we do that for The podcast though like for the podcast
When there’s like a news so We’ll jump on it and use that as a way To grow the podcast for example Um but it’s a little bit of a different Thing from like building websites It’s like it works because social Podcast is more of a social thing and Like follower basing et Yeah cetera like it’s pure keyword and The content on our our sites the way we Build though it’s more like a library Rather than a blog feed uh so people Yes okay some people are consuming it Regularly especially on authority Hackers you know stage three Sites quite well established has a Strong following Uh relatively strong following at least But a lot of our other Sites are not not at the same level Right and we’re not expecting Especially the affiliate sites the Reviews you know we’re not expecting People to come back And read every new review we published Every new article we published on that Topic it’s just They don’t really care about us it’s Just we’re we’re up there on the serp so That’s why they’re coming to us so That’s the mindset we take when when Creating content is like creating Written content Is it’s like a library rather than a a
Blog feed So to do this to build hundreds of Articles Aside from hiring writers uh i mean in The past we’ve had multiple writers and We just like uh here’s a bunch of Keywords go do it but Having content templates so the way we Would structure a review What to include what’s not to include The the sections how we break it down All of these really really important so Like building consistent systems and Processes that people can Can follow um has been has been a big Deal for us we’ve This has allowed us to scale content Without it all going to And to keep it consistent across the the Whole site especially when you have Multiple writers Uh in play yeah i think the hubs is Always important like we almost never do One page on its own anymore We build like a hub of like five ten Twenty pages Uh already the same topic and we found That we do a lot better when we build In hubs versus when we build single Pages about one topic and drive to Something else et cetera And i think that’s something that Differentiates the pros and the amateurs As well i think
It’s a relevancy thing from an seo Perspective for sure but it’s also a Kind of like Internal learning and development thing So when you Focus so much on like one content area You really start to know understand it Very very well Uh and you know by the time you write Your fifth or tenth article Uh in in that content cluster or that Hub You you’re able to write like really Really good stuff Versus if you just you know come into it The first time and rewriting one article And then jumping into another category And jumping around all the time yeah I like also reviewing things at the same Time we do review hubs because it kind Of like It’s like i’m thinking about some Software issues we’re into for example It’s like Obviously they release features at Different times and they kind of like Copy each other as well etc And so reviewing them at different times Is just completely unfair in terms of Comparing things And also while you’re into it you might As well check all the tools at once and Do all the vs alternatives Around the previews etc that you can at
The same time so it’s like From an efficiency point of view your Writers write better content when you Write your hub And at the same time uh it works better On google so It’s like i think a lot of amateurs yeah They just run the blog they just Randomly blog about whatever And again it’s part of this planning When you’re pro you just Yeah you plan your clusters and you Build cluster black cluster Usually what you do is you build the Beginning of a cluster like i like to Start uh Uh hubba at like five to ten pages And then i give it like six months max And then i’ll see how well it did and if You did well then i’m going to build the Rest so maybe like if i have 40 other keywords then i cue the other 40 and here we go Uh we just try to rank for pretty much Every keyword and also what we’re doing There is that If to complete the hub we need to build A page that we have no chance to rank For but builds relevancy to the site we Build that page Even though it’s it’s extremely unlikely We would rank based on metrics and And links and uh sites on the top etc And usually the size we’ve done that for
Tend to do better overall in search Even though these pages don’t so It’s one of these things as well where We don’t look Uh it’s like we’re willing to take a hit On some pages to build a full Hub basically uh i’ll let you take the Building links as well because you do The links too for also Uh so the amateur way first of all is Don’t do it uh so i i’ve seen so many People out there that they’ve written Like 200 articles or something on their Site But not built a single link and think oh Yeah just the content alone is going to Take me through and you know there are Cases Miles because case study is a really Good example he built hardly any links To it but his keyword research and his Content his content optimization was so Well on point Also the targeting i believe of his his Keywords it’s not like Uh high competition stuff by by any Means Uh what we have found Is that whenever we start a project you Know we’ll get content going As soon as the link building really Starts kicking in As soon as we start landing um a good Amount of links
Uh it just takes off and we see it time And time again There’s a huge huge huge correlation There Uh so you have to make link building Like a core part of your business On the same on par with with content as Well Um you can’t just do one uh So that being said if you’re if you’re Gonna do it what i notice a lot of Amateurs do is they will Uh try and find they’re always looking For a new tactic right So they’ll they’ll learn about this one One way to build links They’ll try it they’ll send you know a Handful of Of messages unoptimized the first time They’ve done it so they’ll maybe make a Few mistakes Um or you know the messaging’s not quite On point and then They they won’t get the results they Were expecting because they haven’t Had a statistically significant num Amount of data They’re not doing it properly they Haven’t learned how to do it properly Uh and then they’ll conclude that okay This one doesn’t work i need another Tactic And then they’ll go out there and They’ll try and find another tactic and
Then they’ll Sort of half-ass the implementation of That and they’ll repeat that again and Again and again And they’ll just conclude all link Building doesn’t work or it’s It’s impossible and then they’ll try and Like buy links from uh some service Provider that’s Way too expensive and ends up selling Them pbn links or something Anyway so all that’s to say Uh that the correct approach how how to Really think about link building Is that it’s a process and you’re Building a business process That is going to evolve over time so You need to be you need to first of all Understand it’s a numbers game so you Need to have A lot of prospects going in you need to Be filtering all you need to be Sending to as many people as you can Using Proper data methods to like find Email addresses or to you know filter Filter things or or Sort out your targeting and just be Clever about that And you need to set put enough Throughput through this process Uh and you need to respond like and put Spend time When it where it really matters so that
Could be in very detailed prospecting if You’re doing some kind of like sniper Outreach or if you’re even like a Shotgun style outreach if you’re Sending a lot it’s worth spending a lot Of time in the negotiation so when when Emails come back And a professional or pro understands Like where Where to sort of put their time where to Invest their time in this and they’re Always Improving the processes they have very Rarely do you give up on a link building Process It does happen very very occasionally But you generally just keep evolving the The few that you you have and making it Better and better and better You’ll then use software uh or hire People to create scripts or macros Or maybe uh to interact with sas tools Apis Like hunter api to find email address a Good example And you’ll use those that that level of Automation To massively improve the efficiency of Your existing processes Which you’ve built and have been doing Manually And that will increase your efficiency Overall And just like the numbers will start to
Become amazing All that all this also requires you to Religiously track Data for everything so how much outreach How many messages you’re sending Uh who you’re sending them to when You’re sending them what you said all This kind of stuff you need Spreadsheets and databases and all that On point So that you know what’s working you know What to improve And you know um what to stop if Anything’s if anything’s not working and So you don’t things up by you know Emailing the same person 20 times or Whatever Yeah uh let’s jump up to monetization Now because i think I’ve talked quite a few times about Monetization but i’ll talk about like As you’ve built your site um i think I still have amateurs do essentially What everyone else is doing so It’s like amazon associates obviously It’s not very popular these days but Still a lot of people are using it Media vine all the really big networks Um and also i see a lot of amateurs Being quite afraid to be Getting themselves into more involved Business models where they would Carry their own products whether it be Sales funnels whether it be all these
Things etc And um that massively Caps the revenue um i know A lot of people who make good money and Um very few of them Make it through amazon they will you Know go ahead and Create bespoke partnerships with E-commerce brands they will Create products themselves they will Find a way to you know take something Where they got four percent on amazon And then or three percent And get 40 margin by carrying the Product themselves They will make agreements with other Brands for sponsored content they will Rent Uh retargeting pixels on their site they Will run email funnels they will run all These things that Um i mean again it’s one of these things Where you know we start talking about Email and podcast and the download Numbers goes like Like nobody gives a again if you’re One of these people Well yeah it’s like yeah it’s like and We talk about amazon it’s the biggest And when download is doing something That it’s very rare that you Manage to be on top of the world with The tactics that everyone is doing you Need to kind of like be a little bit
Different Um so i think that If you want to transition from the Submitter to pro And you have a website that’s making Some money already then looking at how To make more money with your exiting Traffic and experimenting with that so An example for example is uh an example For example yes for sure Um one of our sites we uh was monetized Amazon and uh we found this uh site that Just Sells similar items and ships globally Um and can amazon was down to three Percent i think and then Uh this site if we do in a volume will Pay us ten percent And we ran a test on three pages that We’re getting decent traffic and swap The links And uh what we’ve done is uh actually Last weekend i Took the numbers and i calculated our Revenue our epc On amazon and our oops and our apc on That site And figured out that essentially we were Making double the money With that new affiliate program on these Three test pages so now what we’re going To do is we’re going to roll out a much Bigger experiment on maybe 20 pages or 30 pages
Try to see if we’re confirming these Numbers and if we do then we’ll rule out This site-wide And hopefully double the revenue for That site in terms of affiliate revenue And this is the kind of stuff that um That you know takes aside from okay Money to pretty good money or great Money And can really be a game changer in the Sense that imagine if you have double Domain to invest in content if you can Hire better people or create more Content if you can Hire a full-time link builder to work on Your site so this money creates more Money by creating growth Uh and creating available cash flow and So That’s how you create that like kind of Like trickling effect of Of growing fast versus stagnating just By that one swap on that site Um and so that is what many amateurs Don’t do because they’re afraid and also When you do this kind of test It’s very possible that we take three Pages that get good traffic swipe swap The links And make only a quarter of the money and Lose money in the process of learning And It’s scary to to do that and that’s why A lot of people who do a b test just
Just freak out because Many a b tests lose you money but if You’re not willing to do them then you Will never get to that level where you Can really make great money from your Website Um and also if like let’s say that we Figure that out let’s say we roll this Out to our entire site You know what this opens us up to mark It opens us up to the idea of actually Buying competitors And just swapping the links out um and And maybe merging them to our site or Running multiple sites in the niche or Something like this Because we can essentially make double The money for that so again Creates massive opportunity for growth Just from that will to experiment and Will to like play With a little bit more advanced Monetization imagine if we were running Let’s say an email list on that site two And we’re increasing revenue by a third Of 50 or something And yeah it definitely makes sense to Find competitor sites that just monetize Amazon buy them out Swap all of these triple the revenue on These sites And re-flip them if you want you know um So That is that is how pros look at
Monetization Uh i think kind of plays you can do if You get out of the amazon media by the Stuff that everyone does you know Yeah so the way you think of it is like The amount of traffic you have Or the amount of visitors you have like Multiplied by the value per visitor that You’re you’re generating Is how much money you’re gonna make so We as seo spend a lot of time Trying to increase the amount of Visitors we get and i think That that side of things gets a Disproportionately large amount of Attention And effort when in fact it’s actually Very easy to Increase the the revenue per visitor Through finding better programs through Optimizing your your Your site so it converts better and Through To very little very simple things that Are Measurable and trackable and and just Not difficult to do but For some reason people focus way way More on on just Uh let’s let’s get 50 more traffic which Can take you know years Figuring out new monetization requires You to get out of your comfort zone and Do something you haven’t done on your
Site before so it requires you to sit And like figure out something new Whereas doing more seo when you already Have hundreds of pages it’s just oh okay Let’s just you know what i mean it’s Kind of like this routine Thing and like humans love routine and Doing the same thing again and again Um and so and so that’s why they do that And And it’s it’s also it’s tricky because Doing more seo is a factor of growth Right so Um it doesn’t feel like you’re wasting Your time because you will still grow But you know it’s like figuring out Monetization is a multiplier it’s not Like the seo is linear growth and then The monetization is the multiplier to Your uh traffic growth And so um after a certain point of Traffic Monetization trumps uh traffic by a long Shot Provided you already have some traffic And the thing is if you’re able to Monetize then You can just buy the traffic of other People by either buying their site or Buying traffic some paid traffic etc Like There’s so many things you can do like If you run a full funnel etc like Start running facebook ads stop having
Affiliates if you have products All of that so you can you can then Trade money for traffic Um but you can it’s like you make more Money by trading money for traffic then Trading traffic for money ie selling ads You know but the The thing with monetization is everyone Loves amazon Because i mean it confirms relatively Okay but The reason they love it is because it’s Easy yes you don’t have to you don’t Have to think you just Type in type in a product and they have A product about about it you get your Affiliate link bang you’re done Like figuring out the affiliate programs Like the in A space like looking at which ones Actually are likely to convert based on Their Their sales pages testing them out Registering even sometimes can be a Massive Managing all your logins and tracking And sub ids so you can like attribute Things correctly it’s a Massive pain in the ass and that’s just With affiliate right If you really want to increase your your Revenue per visitor Per user um you need to create your own Products you need to
Start uh branding like sourcing your own Products from china or somewhere Branding it Uh and you’re developing products that Way or creating info products And courses and that is not like trust Me that’s Not an easy thing to do a lot of people Think i just bang up a course make a few Videos and sell it and There are no 95 percent of the courses Out there Are are pretty um and You know you can tell that they’re kind Of unloved and people just don’t really Put the effort into to make Something good and the same is true with Physical products as well right look at Amazon for anything and there’s like So much out there with like Terrible reviews but like the few Products at the absolute top of the game Who the creators spent like a lot of Time branding and like Making good design decisions about How to create that product um they’re The ones that win and they’re the ones That win the monetization Game and those companies are those who Are just buying up Affiliate sites and like uh directing it Toward Directing traffic towards their own Physical products say on on amazon we
Know if you Know a few people who are doing that and It’s just like You can’t compete with that because it’s Such a Such a time-consuming difficult thing to Get into But you know that being said if you Don’t start you’ll never get there so It’s something you think about as well Yep that’s why we’re getting someone Else to take out the seo Uh for me actually so i can focus more On this thing i’m actually quite excited For that Um okay pick up the last point okay last Point is about growth so Growing your site and it’s kind of a Mentality thing as well but also a Practical thing so As an amateur you’re very conservative i Mean obviously you want to grow right in The in the early days those You know 100 increases where you go from 30 visitors to 60 visitors it doesn’t Matter You know it’s it’s a reality typical seo Case study right increased traffic by 100 Is like 10 to 20. it’s like wow But there’s a there’s a thing that Especially when people you know quit Their jobs they go full Full time they get started getting very
Conservative they stop pushing the boat They stop experimenting With things which can bring them massive Amounts of growth they just want to make All they want to do is make more content And more links and as much as we Preach that is the way the way to go They they Stop kind of like looking for new ideas To improve the quality or the efficiency Or Like we talked about like the Monetization stuff um Before they’re just kind of like seeking To maintain their Profit and like uh a nice bit of growth Uh but they they kind of almost stopped Dreaming for the The seven figure kind of range uh and i I see this a lot Particularly when people get to like 3k 4k A month and they can pay all their bills And they so they see this life and Travel That’s why people split you know the People that want to build something big And the people that just want to pay the Bill there’s like a message exactly Exactly um and you know it’s absolutely Fine there are i know a lot of people Who are who Have amazing super fun lives uh they do Very little work not very little they
Still work hard but they were at work Smart rather than hard i would say And they travel and they just like have A great time and that’s what they want To do and Hats off to them but if you want to like Really take this to the next level the Site it gets harder and you have to work Work more the the bigger you get Essentially so it’s it’s kind of like You need to be able you need to come Into mindset of okay I’ve reached this kind of like Sustainable level all my basic needs are Met i’m start saving some money and Stuff But then you need to find motivation From somewhere to get from you know 10k to 100k a month um and it’s quite Difficult because What else are you going to spend that Money on um There’s definitely diminishing returns From each extra thousand dollars a month Or whatever That you’re you’re making uh so it’s Something you you have to be careful of It also it’s hard to tell which side You’ll be until you get there So a lot of people seem like very hungry And then they get to that point it’s Like It just falls flat and vice versa as Well some people are like
Kind of shy and and timid at the Beginning and they start doing well and They Like it really boosts them and they Become like really yeah um Yeah and so it’s really hard to tell Like A lot of people say they’re on one side And end up on the other side and And vice versa so it’s quite it changes Over it changes over time as well you Know like when you’re young and you know Your priorities are different but as you Get older you know you’re thinking more Long term and these things would start To come Um like the balance of importance Becomes a bit different Uh yeah one other thing i wanted to say Uh around Amateurs and growing their site is they Take a very scatter gun approach As well um and they end up doing a lot Of stuff but not really following Through with it Not really tracking it properly not Really seeing what works Uh the way the way to to get growth Really is to try a lot of stuff And then when you find something that Hits like drop everything and zoom in on That and like just really make that That one niche category product Whatever it is work and just exploit it
Um that’s that’s what businesses do Um i think that at the pro Level you you’re you have a much Different mindset with that than than The amateur level i’d say all right well We’re gonna close it here and we’re Gonna do something i forgot to say the Beginning of the episode which is if You’re watching on youtube Then you can actually click on the Subscribe button and the bell icon below If you don’t want to mute Any of our video thumbs up really help With distribution as well Uh it would be really nice and if you’re Listening to the audio podcast you can Subscribe on any Podcast platform so i’m not going to use Them the platform podcast you want you Can go And search for toy hacker podcast and Subscribe and you’ll receive our latest Episode every week we have more than 200 Episodes as well if you haven’t listened To all of them Then that’s your homework for this week Uh and well thank you for listening to This one and we’ll see you Next week for another one have a good [Music] Week [Music] You