Google is in trouble if you haven’t Followed the news they’re together with Amazon Apple and facebook are being Investigated for being monopolies and Have been Interrogated at length by u.s attorney Generals on their practices In today’s podcast we discussed the Stuff that google does not want you to Know but had to reveal Under oath and what it means for website Owners let’s get started [Music] Hey everyone welcome back to the atari Hacker podcast today we’re going to do Something a little bit different because It’s something that will affect you to Some extent and we’re going to be Talking about The google antitrust hearing Um you know they are being investigated For being a monopoly right now so we Wanted to talk about this We give you guess who mark so how’s it Going mark oh always as Always it’s going great yeah just listen To five and a half hours of uh Congressional Uh subcommittee did you listen to every Company i listened to the whole thing Yeah That’s how much you care about this Podcast yeah which one is the worst
According to you Um amazon Yeah i would agree i think from the fact That they use the product data the From aba and just like large competitor Products is like quite Quite messy to be honest yeah and some Of their um I think the culture in amazon is is the Worst Uh it seems like they they’re aware of The failings but Even though they have policies against It they don’t enforce it or can’t Enforce it And there’s a lot of testimony around That but in general All of the all of the ceos so we had Amazon apple google and facebook Ceos all of them were a little bit kind Of like Yeah i i guess wordy in their answers so Not really giving straight up answers But rather giving let the like Politically Not answering usually yeah so oh you Know that’s a great question i’m so glad You asked that You know it’s such a great question Because we do this this and this and we Care about our users privacy Experiences so usually for me when they Didn’t answer it was just yes basically Um that’s that’s kind of the way i’m
Looking at it and and when you take that Approach then They’re pretty they’re pretty um But anyway let’s just um let’s just go Back and explain to people what happened For the people who don’t know what Happened So what happened uh so let’s just clear Up what what this is so this is a Subcommittee on antitrust commercial and Administrative law Uh what so there’s basically 13 people From The u.s house of rep representatives Which is a lower House in the u.s which i believe is Responsible for introducing Laws primarily around taxes government Income that kind of thing Um but these are all elected elected Officials and There’s 13 people eight democrats five Republicans so it’s a little bit more Left-leaning Um in in terms of some of the Questioning at least uh this is the same Committee i believe that uh had the Famous Uh tobacco uh when they had all the Tobacco execs back in the In the 90s and they’re like do you Believe that smoking is addictive and They all said no And then they all like uh all the
Tobacco companies being sued and Advertising um being stopped and also Stuff like that Uh so anyway this is the first time that All these big tech execs have appeared Together um to be to be grilled by by Congress and Or by the subcommittee rather and they Have together in incorporated Incorridera together yeah Yeah uh all remotes they’re all remote And they all had amazing video quality Setups So uh that was that was pretty cool Although amazing yes they’re watching Our podcast you know although amazon’s Uh jeff bezos seemed to have a bit more Lag Than everyone else uh he kept talking When when he was being silenced So you know read into that what you will Uh but basically there is a concern That these big tech companies are too Big at the moment And that current antitrust regulation Which has been around for Hundreds of years in the us isn’t Suitable To to deal with them because they’re big Tech companies and the landscape the Digital Landscapes vastly different to you know 100 years ago when big oil companies Were being broken up by this
The same legislation so they’re the Committee’s trying to the subcommittee’s Trying to identify Whether these laws need to be changed In order to handle modern day reality Um so so that was the the primary Purpose of it Yeah and uh what happens if they get Like if they say that they are Monopolies they break them up right Into multiple companies well that’s not The job of this subcommittee Uh as i understand it there’s a separate Department which enforces this Regulation Uh and so this this subcommittee is more Trying to determine if they need Additional legislation To come at it but potentially yes you Could have A situation where you know apple or Google is getting broken up so the ads Platform and youtube and Uh you know search and whatever else Could be could be separated potentially Yeah although microsoft was seen as a Monopoly not that long ago and was not Broken up for example Yeah honestly i don’t really know what Happened like with that because i i Believe they were supposed to be broken Up but then It never seemed to happen and i don’t Know they still push you with the
Edge or internet explorer when you when You install windows and And all that so i don’t know and yeah It’s interesting yeah microsoft Suppression oems that was the problem as Well like the oppression oh yeah movies Are in windows by default and all that Stuff Which is actually a thing that came up Here with uh with google pushing uh Chrome on dell uh as well So they’re trying to get them on on all Dell computers so That was it seems like that issue hasn’t Hasn’t gone away but it’s interesting That microsoft wasn’t actually Here despite them being i think a big Big Monopoly from what i was reading the Biggest monopoly Broken up a while ago was att actually They were broken up in eight different Companies Um so yeah that’s what happens Essentially and that could have massive Implications Uh both on stock markets that are Massively led by these companies right Now uh and on Um just the products in general you know It’s like imagine if google’s broken up Into five search engines or something Like that would change everything Um so let’s just um anything else you
Want to say to introduce this thing like Oh like the main topic that we discussed Doesn’t mean uh No not really i mean there’s there’s a Lot of detail here A lot of speculation and just i want to Say that A lot of the statements were we’re Making here Are are not to be construed as google Definitely did this It’s it’s um yeah you know a legend Allegedly Is the is the word yeah and also i want To say as well A lot of the so there’s evidence Provided actually Online so you can go and read like the Emails the email conversations internal Emails and google et cetera as part of The investigation And a lot of these emails are quite old To be honest um It’s like 2005 to 2008 nine er something Like this So it’s not new and um Yeah i think a lot of the stuff already Has happened like when you talk about Plans etc for example it’s already done Uh because it’s literally like 10 15 Years later sometimes So um yeah it’s it’ll take all of these With the green stuff And also not everything is necessarily
Gonna Necessarily happen or will happen they Were just old plants basically Um so generally start with just the Interesting bits right away Sure i’ll start i start the first one um The first one was actually So part of the investigation that they Did found out that 63 Of searches that start on google and on A google property these days That’s that’s what um the the guy who Has the questions Uh i can’t remember his i can’t remember Which one asked but Uh that’s essentially where he was Quoting as a number from an internal Investigation Um and you know it’s things for example Like you search from google and then you Land on a youtube video or you search on Google And you land on a local listing or you Search on google and you read a feature Snippet and you don’t click anywhere i Guess that counts as like Um an internal google search or Something um I guess it’s something that i mean we’ve Seen all the time right it’s like since Fitting snippets for example using Uh declining traffic in general to Websites and Well last year we had more than 50
Percent of queries That did not result in a click to a to Uh Web property which i guess is like a Large percentage of these like Internal searches etc and basically um They were talking on how google used to Be a term style of the Internet so they used to distribute Traffic To now becoming more of a walled garden And i think one thing that was quite Interesting as well Is that actually in one of the internal Emails That um that google was having they Essentially explained that when they Talk about vertical Searches so they talk about like you Know like um Sites like amazon for shopping or they Talk like expedia for traveling etc And they’re like well like um the open Web that we you all Loved is basically gone and now it’s Like segmented and siloed into different Uh levels and people like either push Their app or Um push their like internal website and Never let people leave and you don’t get Linked out or anything like that and Um i think like it’s kind of like a it’s A it’s a vision that Google has brought in together with the
Other guys and What we’re seeing today is is that it’s Like people like keeping people on Google as well because it’s so much more Profitable and they actually Acknowledge that this traffic is so Profitable it’s crazy to send it for Free to other people uh In their emails and that they could do Something with it and that’s when they Mentioned Building you know the for example google Flights and things like that all the Vertical stuff Yeah i mean taken in isolation like Promoting your own products and in your Business like i mean every business Does that yeah it’s just the fact that Google has entrenched itself it has 90 Whatever percent of of search in in the Us at least These days and the ability for someone Else to build another search engine and Compete with it is Is basically impossible at this stage Due to Yeah they’re also mentioning using the Search data to enter these verticals Which I guess they did so um they essentially Have an unfair advantage here because They have all the data before they enter The market they know exactly how much Uh traffic these sites get and all of
That and so on and they’re able to Just so just like how much money they Make how much money they’re there they Can make From ads in that space if you use Adwords and you have your conversion Pixel on your thank you page they have Your revenue too They know exactly how much you make et Cetera so they know everything Um and so they were able to use that so Um I guess for like uh for site owners in General it’s just like Wow it’s like same as amazon with a fba Right it’s like I mentioned earlier that amazon uses fba Data to figure out which Verticals to enter and just kill Companies and just like make it cheaper And use their size to Take it over well google is kind of Doing the same research essentially Um it’s not really affecting like most People listening to this podcast to be Honest like You’re too small for google to to care That much um Unless you’re like in travel for example Or like for example Product reviews in general i think Product reviews is something that google Has tried to look at now so if you Will like best something then you you
Get like these snippets some these Shopping snippets on top etc i guess That’s how they’re going after that Um but i think some featured snippets in General um yeah i mean i watched the Entire the entire Five and a half hour thing and the word Featured snippet wasn’t mentioned once Yeah yeah they say still content yeah so Prior to what we have now and what we Call now as feature snippets Um there have been like the weather has Always had a feature snippet since as Long as i can remember at least Um and there was there’s been a few Specific cases which were brought up in In the hearing Interestingly one of them’s a site Called celebrity net worth Which unsurprisingly has lots of loads Of articles about How much what the net worth of each Celebrity is um Actually there used to be an ex-client Of ours for our agency um Back in the day that’s funny actually Before this this uh this this all Happened but Uh google was accused of stealing Content From celebrity net worth and displaying It essentially in in feature snippet Format Um so that people wouldn’t um
You know go to celebrity network they Just get everything from yeah it’s the Few snippets you know when i talk about Keyword research these days like i tell People if you can answer the query The entire query is in the physics Snippet then don’t worry about that Keyword because nobody’s going to click You know Yeah so it’s like how old is this person Or like you know how much money they Want so like something that is like A one sentence answer then it’s not even Worth writing anymore Because you get so little traffic even Though you rank you know yeah and The the subcommittee chair who who posed This question Said that they had heard consistent Statements about this kind of thing from From google He used the word stealing uh the google Ceo Uh said he disagrees with the Characterization disagreeing with Characterization is a phrase that did Come up surprisingly Unsurprisingly a lot um probably twenty Doesn’t say it doesn’t happen Yeah he just says that he doesn’t like The world there was a there’s another Couple of examples so Uh genius which was like a musical Lyrics company
Uh this was actually quite a famous case So they caught Google displaying their their their Lyrics on their on their site and they Actually Put some fake words in the lyrics Um that google or that that google then Scraped And were displaying so they kind of Called them red handed Uh so this was this was brought up and Google Claimed that it actually purchased the Rights to that From another company and that that other Company had like Misappropriated them or whatever scraped Them uh then there was Another situation with with yelp and Like google was Stealing again these are the words of The the committee Um content or reviews from yelp and Displaying it on On google and then there was at one Point i think google threatened to D-list yelp or some Something something like that so that’s Exactly what happened this is they said Let us tell your content or Are we index you basically yeah and The the hearing didn’t go into this Because Into this bit specifically because they
They seem to be like maybe three or four Years behind what’s going on Today uh and and it’s only in the last Couple years really the feature symbols Have really started to to affect You know smaller people like you and i It’s a massive And affiliates but i just i remember That the case then it was a vacuum Cleaner or something it was like best The keyboard was best vacuum cleaners And then the result The feature snippet was a list of the Best vacuum cleaners pulled from one of The websites And then there was the google shopping Links to all of those Those products that that had been pulled From that curated list Um and like for me that that is kind of Like a crow crossing the line because You’re in a situation where like It’s not just that you know for the Lyrics they do the same so they promote Youtube music basically so they want you To subscribe to the premium music Service Using the lyrics that were stolen yeah From there so it’s like it’s kind of the Same stuff you know they monetize Stolen content you know yeah yeah uh and And that’s that’s like an example of how That can affect you know And affiliate someone listening to to
This this show It’s not just big huge sites That uh that are affected by this and Left unchallenged completely that like There’s no End to to where this this could go so The one thing One good thing which i i guess took away From from From watching all this was that um to an Extent The the fact that this has been been Brought up and repeatedly Questioned to to google may make them Think twice about going too far with This With this kind of thing uh do you think They would regress back Do you think we’d see like um maybe more Traffic sent to the physio snippet like They would change the layout so that People click more maybe you put a button Or something you know something like This you know Uh i i don’t know all i’m saying is that I think They’re going to be a little less brazen About doing this Um in future i think as google’s become Larger and there’s more anti-trust type Attention on it It it needs to start policing itself Essentially it was you know a start-up With a startup mentality like
Do whatever for for the longest time but As it’s matured um it has to have some Better corporate governance and That those kind of systems in place so Yeah One thing that shocked me as well when i Um when i checked all this stuff Is that um basically in their internal Documents google admits to be using Signals that they Would say like if you’re going to Webmaster chat or something and john Mueller and all of that They will tell you they don’t use right Um so for example click through rate Number like clicks from people to search Like they’ll tell you it’s not a ranking Factor and then These really old emails already Mentioned that and they said they use That Um as a way to determine the quality and They use the user like the user metrics Etc and the clicks they mentioned that Um to do that and uh It’s it’s also congruent with like Testing we’ve done so i don’t know if You remember like a while ago we would Use that blog post on like fastest WordPress team And then i went on my facebook it’s like Uh there’s a bunch of people like Following me on facebook and i was like Can you guys
Just google fast test uh wordpress theme And click on our result and then Through clicks we managed to take it From like button of page one to like Number three or something temporarily Like when this click click Click stop like the rankings went down If you google it now i think one page Two or something Um but um yeah like and we’ve done it Several times i’ve done it a few times On my profile and every single time Just by posting on social media our Rankings went up right so Um it’s quite congruent what they’re Writing in their internal emails and What we’ve observed But you go to a master chat and then They’ll tell you this is not a ranking Factor Don’t worry uh it’s more about having Quality content And uh and it’s kind of annoying And essentially just pointing out that Um The information that google gives to Webmaster is also it not only does Google steal content from webmasters but They also give I don’t know if it’s purposely or not The question is does john miller know Himself Or is he fed by his superior with Information
That google wants to give to people and The best liars just don’t know they’re Lying you know Um and so it’s like i don’t even want to Blame john mueller himself It’s more like the company in general That has this attitude that obviously Some people internally know That this matters um but the people that Talk to webmasters and people Who create content that then google Stills um Do actually tell people the opposite and Um And so i think it’s one of one of the Reasons they would try to hide that is Because it’s quite easy To manipulate i mean if i can post on Social media and push my rankings up Imagine what you can do on like a sales Period for example imagine for black Friday if you can boost your rankings by Buying clicks on A mechanical turk or something which People do already it does happen and i Imagine that as we talk about this more People will do that Um but um it’s uh I guess they just don’t have a good Filters for that or they’re not as good As maybe for links etc Because it’s much harder because they Don’t have as much data about people who Just randomly
Go on google not logged in than uh they Would have from like Links from sites that they’ve been Tracking for years right so I i i could imagine it’s much more Complicated than that But same like for example right now if You google chronovirus for example you Will see that The sites that yeah um some sites that Do really well don’t have the most links But because for example this I’m thinking about this world info Statistics site for example like that Was definitely not the strongest cyber Because they have the most up-to-date Stats People click on them a lot and then they Rank pretty much number one now above Government sites and everything Um despite link data not not confirming That Um so it’s i think it’s like for me What it does this stuff is it breaks Trust with Anything that google says officially Through their pr channels it doesn’t Mean that it’s not that everything isn’t I mean did you believe them in the first Place or Well it’s like i oh i i didn’t believe Everything but at the same time you know I also thought that a lot of people were Like conspiracy theorists and being a
Little bit too crazy about this etc and Google didn’t give a Like what was the interest in lying etc And now i’m trusting them a bit less on This stuff and it’s like And i’ll be even more critical to Anything they put out there and i i Think it’s dangerous for google to Create defiance towards webmasters as Well especially if they rely on them Uh for stuff so it’s like uh uh Yeah it’s uh it’s it’s unfortunate it’d Be nice to be a little bit more When a question is asked explicitly that You don’t have to advertise it but when The question is asked explicitly to lie Is a bit Uh is a bit annoying you know it’s like I’d rather than not answering the Question then you know There was a uh a question that they were Asked Does does google intervene Manually on individual search search Results and They they answered we don’t manually Intervene on particular search results Um so they don’t Do it but they so they basically said oh Yeah we do but we do Algorithmically yeah exactly and then There’s this whole debate about like Well Well how is the algorithm made oh it’s
By by a person Um also i think they’re tricking people Because like i think they You know they kind of have topics they Might er they might influence them but It’s not A search result um it’s like let’s say That you have the singular on the plural So you change both it’s not exactly Changing your search result if they just Like Change it like an area or topic you know What i mean like they also They also talked about so they have a Deceptive news blacklist Uh so they have determined publication Sites which are characterized by Deceptive news and um there’s quite a Lot of debate in the call about in the Um hearing about about this because Particularly from the republicans yeah Because there’s uh I mean there’s several publications and And And stories that are been that have been Suppressed Um and those that have been suppressed Tend to be more right-leaning And google is more liberal in its like Staffing and employees so There’s uh numerous questions from the Uh The republican uh members on Youtube’s policies there and and things
Like that Um but what was also because also there Was this So for that part there was actually an Internal email That was quoted by a republican guy that Uh were like uh a senior member of staff Of google like was trying to push like Latino vote in key states and swing States etc um Like we don’t know if it’s true or not It’s like this guy seems pretty like I’ve seen this guy Uh question focus as well for the Conover and stuff and he’s very very Biased Yeah so it’s it’s questionable how they Orient the questions as well it’s not Just google being evil here there’s also Something Where and the google ceo was in on this Email when Someone said something about like Pushing Push i think it was pushing clinton or Like hurting hurting trump in the Election Features or something something like That um and When asked about it the the ceo of Google said oh yeah that was a joke Or something like that and um that was That was worth it but what i was going To say about
The individual search results is google Said that they have something called Fringe ranking Um and that is responsible My understanding is that that is Responsible for Scoring the um Fringeness i guess of a of a publication Or a website So and i’m just wondering how much of That was related to For example at the medic update um Which you know essentially penalized Sites who which were less evidence-based So things like um You know anti-vaccinations or Like anti-gmo organic food things like Things like this Were sites which were pushing that kind Of content essential oils and that were Penalized a lot more including one of Our sites which we’ve talked about Many times and i actually think like a Part of Part of that was like maybe the correct Decision um there were certainly there’s Nothing is bad yeah there’s certainly One or two Um cert search results i can remember Just being like absolutely appalled by What was ranking Uh number number one there and like you Know could could generally hurt people But what this committee was kind of
Getting across is well You and this wasn’t just aimed at google But like facebook and Um the others as well primarily google And facebook but you guys are so big and You have so much content and so much Control over this Um and then they’re like oh on the one Hand Can you stop extremist or you know Hurtful um speech or Or results and then they’re like yes and Then The the committee was like well we have This example of where You know something about face masks Being a joke was allowed to reach 20 Million people by On facebook on monday or something like That and then They were zuckerberg was a bit bit Queasy about answering that but Basically the the question is can you Can you self-police Are you effective at self-policing and Then on the other hand if you are Self-policing How what’s to say you’re not going too Far and your own Agenda or ideology no there’s yeah it’s Like you’re making editorial decisions At that point you know it’s like um It’s like from the moment you start Censoring stuff it’s like you
You can’t be 100 objective and it’s like You know these tech companies obviously Have more liberal people than uh Than conservative people and so um It’s like this is like a representation From uh These people that i i guess maybe they Could try it’s like you can’t even scan That when you recruit people and You’re not even allowed to do that to be Honest i think it’s illegal um so they Can’t even Do it so it’s illegal for them to try to Be Bipartisan at the same time um they’re Asked to be To try to stay objective which is quite Complicated i think i think it’s like It’s easy to give them about that But um It’s also extremely difficult to to To way to balance this you know it’s Extremely difficult to do It which is why um you know That they maybe the committee may be Right in saying that well if you can’t Actually do it then Shouldn’t we shouldn’t we step in and Legislate that Um yeah that what what If the government legislates what’s What’s good and bad it’s also It’s also a problem when governments Become authoritarian you know it’s like
It’s also that’s why News tend to be plural that’s kind of The solution that’s why monopolies of That basically Sure and and part of this debate is Around like what is Equal representation because if you if You say like Climate climate change and and Anti-climate change should be given Equal voice 50 50 because there are two Opposing ideas Or should one be given a voice Represented by How many people are in favor of it or Believe it or whatever So that’s like a whole whole other Debate as well one thing that facebook Did actually say is that while the Enforcement is left to You know it’s its employees with their Inherent biases the Uh creation of the frameworks to police It and you know what’s What’s fringe what’s not fringe is more Bipartisan and they have like Independent Committees and you know they get equal Representation from From all sides to try and uh establish Those things but then the guy was like Well can you name one conservative Um publication that which is on Which is um contributed to that and it
Was like he couldn’t So um yeah not not quite sure On on those things yeah uh fair enough i Thought that but i think it’s small the Fact that they’re they’re so big i think The main problem because yeah You know if fox news was the biggest tv Channel in the world and had 90 percent Of all viewership it will also be a Problem right it’s like it’s the same Thing you know Sure so it’s like it’s more about like Like that’s why the only way to balance News is to just have Many more or less similar sized outlets Yeah and i think i think that’s why the Anti-trust thing is here But it’s quite interesting this fringe Ranking and i’m wondering it’s probably Algorithmic right it’s like it’s not Someone just looking at it and putting This core Um so i guess That do you think that means that uh e80 Is Israel is real I mean they’ve confirmed that fringe Ranking is real for For for an upset so i mean eat Specifically being a A thing i don’t know but like the The the what eat represents i mean of Course that’s that’s going to be a thing Like authoritativeness or
Or trust yeah of course that’s going to Be a thing but just not I think eit is the concept and fringe Ranking is the metric that it’s one of The metrics they use to make it happen In real life basically Um and they put us called one to ten Basically of like one being Untrustable and 10 being very adjustable For example Um so it’s quite interesting um i think One thing as Well is about around the human raters um So When you ask in same when you’re asked To in a webmaster’s chat et cetera You’re like Oh how do you guys use human raters and They usually say We use it to test different versions of The algorithm we give two versions of The serp to Um a human quality writer and he just Says i like the one on the left or like The one on the right better And based on that we pick you know which Changes we want to roll out Based on how this was calculated right Yet Uh and then they say oh these don’t Affect the algorithm at all and they Don’t actually influence rankings right Um and again this was a partial answer This wasn’t exactly a lie
Uh it was a partial answer so what the Internal emails say Is that they don’t use the answers from The Human raters as ranking signals but They use these to feed Machine learning basically so they use And it’s like It’s a little bit different from like Already making the algorithm then asking People to choose Versus making the algorithm based on People’s choice Um and what it means is that In the end google is just trying to Replicate that human Choice thing and and actually people’s Answer to these things actually has an Influence On rankings later it’s just they haven’t Made that choice they just try to Replicate the choice with machine Learning And just scale this up but um but it’s a Little bit different than Quality control right it’s actually Using this as a signal To teach a computer to make the same Choices in the future And so as a result like now you Understand why they have so many human Quality writers because I don’t think they need as many if it Was just to quality control
Search um and i think they did do better Job In the short term at least so again It’s one of these things where you go to The webmasters chats and they tell you One thing And you read their internal emails and Something else Um and really i think um i think this Kind of stuff is Because of the timeline i think it Matches with google panda more or less So i think um and it’s like you know When they release google planner they Were like oh ask yourself would you put Your credit card details On that website would you do these with Like you know questions they would ask To humans to be honest Um so i think this and maybe ranked Brain and things like that And just the fact that panda is rolled Out in inside The algorithm now um was the making of That and The making of this kind of updates that We can’t really understand saying oh It’s just about links or it’s just about This et cetera It’s more than trying to essentially Replicate that human mind of deciding Like do i like this page or not like This page And you know they could do the same for
Backlinks for example like do you like This thing do you not like this thing Is it and then just kind of replicate That and then just process back things In that way And then it’s like you know a hundred Different factors that come in when they Essentially try to emulate That human decision and that’s why it’s So hard to point out as seos What these updates are and like Something like medic rolls out And if they build these algorithms based On that essentially And they need a lot of input to create This kind of machine learning like That’s why they have they have like Tens of thousands of human raters that All they just say like these i like These are like this Um that’s because you need you need Millions of input to actually put Something that’s Semi-decent and then i guess they use Also a b testing in the surfs to Get your feedback without you knowing And uh And so it’s a it’s a little bit Different and i think that explains a Lot of updates That uh were unexplained and that Explains the updates when google’s like There’s nothing to fix you should just Have great content and read the search
Guidelines well Basically they’re just using the they’re Using this and they’re trying to to copy That and they were saying they didn’t do That so Uh again lack of transfer and even if we Know like what does it change it’s not Like i can change a lot of things in the Way of approach things so it’s like It’s like why do they not tell you and That that is a little bit irritating to Me and again it’s like Uh like it’s not like i’m gonna figure It out because i know how you do it Because anyway i don’t know how your Algorithm works Um so i don’t know it’s like it feels Like google just lies to webmasters Because they’re so afraid of being Caught upon or maybe like maybe they Have bad memories of like seo 15 years Ago where you could just have keywords And they have no Control over this they don’t even want To tell you how they’re doing are they Afraid of competition They’re afraid of like duckduckgo doing The same thing for example or being Doing the same thing et cetera and so It’s like a competitive advantage Um but do not think that it’s more Likely that it’s just It relies on the Good search results rely on people not
Knowing how to manipulate The the algorithm and yeah the more info They give About but then basically easier it is Then the The less good their search results are Going to be so basically you can trust Google webmasters chats As much as you trust the white house uh Correspondent when they give you Press briefings basically Yeah or i mean like even less basically Spin master Spin doctors you know they’re just Spinning spinning whatever the story Makes them look better even less though Because like Google webmaster that they’re not caught They’re not held to account by anyone Yeah exactly yeah and nobody cares that Much like it’s like it’s such a small Industry Like like the general public doesn’t Care about webmasters One thing which what one so what often Happens in these antitrust Kind of uh hearings is that Primarily left-leaning politicians about Break them up Break up the big companies and then the Right leaning ones will be like don’t Break up the big companies Um there was one out there there was one Really
Interesting comment by the Lead republican i forget what what the Guy’s name is but the The senior republican on the committee He was like He actually asked the question has gdpr Entrenched big tech big tech companies So Um when that that was a european Regulation when that came out Did that actually hurt big companies did It make them hot did it make them hard Or did it hurt small companies Because the legislation was so complex And difficult to understand and Implement and small companies didn’t Have Um you know big big legal teams and Um he was very concerned that Any regulation which was put forward To attempt to sort of reign in or Control these big tech companies would Inadvertently hurt Smaller companies um and we’ve seen that Many many times gdpr was one the vat Moss thing Which was supposed to like target amazon Just made it much more harder for small E-com companies in in europe to Figure out their shopping cart vat sales Tax regulation all this and stuff And it really i mean that really echoed Home like true with with us like i i i Felt like that was a
A big issue uh it was later brought up As well that And i don’t really understand this thing About first party and third-party Cookies but Um has it was asked that has Banning third-party cookies Disadvantaged google And uh puchai the google ceo Really tried to dodge that question um And then eventually admitted that no it Has not disadvantaged google because Google can get that data from other Sources Um but it has disadvantaged competition Um so that’s something something Interesting as well Yeah basically as we try to avoid Breaking up the monopolies and making Rules around them it actually makes You need to apply the same rules to Everyone and just it’s easy for these Big companies to fix it and it’s because They have all the resources and it’s not Easy for you basically You had something about um the military Or something Yeah so there was a department of Defense Project i think it was called project Maven um Which it was used as some kind of ai Technology i’m not sure exactly what it Did
Um but google pulled out of that 10 billion contract on citing ethical Grounds I think it had something to do with uh There’s maybe like some kind of internal Activists And some people wrote let some people Within the company Complained and got a bunch of signatures And wrote a letter or to the Ceo or management or whatever anyway They pulled out of this And a lot of the um republicans were you Know why are you pulling out of this Kind of concerned and then it came to Light in these hearings that Um google was funding some research and Actually had some people in some chinese Universities By the way china came up a lot in these Discussions um People people that are bashing china um The The people in the committee rather um But google yeah so google had someone in In these chinese universities working on Some kind of ai tech and that That tech then later found its way into Some Chinese fighter jet targeting system uh And so there was an argument like how is Google essentially working for a Foreign military yeah not our own um And there was lots of discussion about
Yeah how the bias affected things and There’s even some things more recently With like the black lives matter Protests wave in in the us And how there was some similar letters From 2000 employees wanting to like stop Google providing services to the police Like I i think that was like g suite and Email and that kind of stuff Um so the people they’re basically Um the committee was asking for google’s Position on that and so they were trying To clarify that without Again without saying anything or Committing to anything Uh it’s like can you commit to not Taking away technology from the police And they’re like we believe that the law Enforcement Provides a vital role in our community And blah blah blah blah so it was very Very boring and so yeah yeah yeah yeah That was kind of a theme throughout all The this um you know people just Waffling a lot without really saying Anything this is the The no version basically but it Might be interpreted a bit So it’s like if we’re wrong uh google Feel free to outreach to us Um uh let’s do some debates though like I wanna like i think we talked about the
Main points that i wanted to talk about But Um i wanted to know like what do you Think all this stuff means For the future of building websites People who listen to this podcast what Could change for them Based on this whole investigation Obviously they’re just investigating Whether they need to change their law Right now Which uh means we’re pretty far away From any government action i imagine Well that’s actually that’s different From enforcement of the law so there Are also there’s some case in california And Um there’s i read something in the Economist about them With them wanting to uh have some kind Of Uh start some kind of anti-trust hearing Prior To the election at least um so this is I mean it’s still happening and i i Think there this is definitely not the Last we’ve we’ve Heard about this even if the laws don’t Change and are are suitable enforcement Of them Is a separate thing and there seem to be Cases here which demonstrate that Actually yeah Some some issues have been some lines
Have been crossed But in terms of in terms of how this Affects You and i or you know the average Website owner authority Owner yeah it doesn’t for now Um i think they’d be a bit less Aggressive in rolling out new stuff Etcetera maybe like they might be less Aggressive in sending Like uh in growing no click searches etc Like changing the layout so that it Grows even more and so on Yeah i mean we were we were talking About you know a day when google Has like 100 you know 100 of the results To google’s properties and that and i Think That is probably never gonna happen um i Mean it may increase further From where it is now but this is that This is definitely a signal that Hey you know you guys are maybe pushing The boundaries a little bit you need to Rein it in Otherwise we’ll regulate um and so i Think I think this kind of warning shot has Maybe been heard and That may impact future decisions um in Google which hopefully will Stop you know blatant um Theft of uh of content in In snippets you know they need to make
It lesser shopping links and Yeah those kinds of things i think also It’s like you need to look at the Alternative right imagine they go and They’re like converts like okay we need To break up google into six search Engines That would also be a bit of a nightmare For um for Everyone to be honest and including Website owners because i don’t think They would That’s not really how um how they break Up companies they They would separate etc yeah they would Separate you know Uh maybe gmail um google cloud Youtube uh search and maybe Yeah adwords i’m not sure but the Problem with google is that Uh it’s ad business it’s its entire ad Stack It makes eighty percent of its revenue Of alphabet Yeah and the rest is entire revenue and A hundred percent of its profit So it’s like you just have a bunch of Other companies like pissing away money On bandwidth and And other stuff and not really yeah They’re just generating data for the Advertising so basically so you still End up in a situation Where they are somewhat integrated or
Very dependent on each other And then you know what are the different Incentives there but Um i mean part of me is just like it’d Be quite interesting to see what what Would happen if google was You know i think it’s never gonna happen Because The snp 500 is composed At more than 20 of these companies now If you include microsoft and so Especially in the current times That we’re living in um obviously uh the American government’s spending trillions Of dollars to make sure the stock market Is not collapsing And so would they really cancel that by Breaking up the companies that actually Drive Drive yeah i mean that’s that’s quite a Silly Question um i i don’t first of all i i Would disagree that The the government is propping up the Stock market per se Um that’s a side effect they’re happy They’re trying to help you that they’re Doing but it’s not to prop the stock Market up Um i know but like think about people Who want to be re-elected right It’s like it’s like would they would They push really hard for Breaking and including their own savings
Essentially for like At least in the short term like banking That Yeah i mean i don’t think it’s quite Quite as significant um You know okay especially the people on The subcommittee you know you I’m pretty sure they’d be required to Disclose any kind of uh Holdings or whatever i mean the u.s is Probably quite strict Yeah the u.s is quite strict with that There was when coronavirus came out There was um A few um i think this is quite straight For that but trump Got busted like uh short selling stocks Before they announced all the lockdowns And Yeah i saw that anyway we’re getting a Bit into uh politics Uh here yeah that’s not good for me it’s Important it’s important because that Could mean like what’s gonna change in Search etc like it’s like if If there is a market drive for this There are many political reasons why Someone either would want to to break up The likes of google or would Actively try and stop it The s that logic about the s p 500 is Not one of those Those reasons all right um okay So now that we essentially have proof
That google lies Regularly to webmasters what do we do With any kind of communication that they Send our way through tweets for updates Through these webmasters chat etc should We even look at what they’re saying Uh yeah 100 like you you still get a List and listen to them Um but i mean from our perspective i Don’t think anything’s changed like we Always Take what they say with it with a pinch Of salt right i remember 2012 when uh matt cutt said uh if you’re Doing guest posting Large-scale guests you should probably We’re shutting it down or something like That And you know eight years later guest Post still Guess those links still help help a site In in many cases not in all cases many Cases Um so and i remember writing a post back Then For our agency blog about um how to Interpret things google are saying and Really like digging in Reading between the lines um which is Fine when they’re They’re being honest and they’re just Being a bit smithy about it but when They’re Straight up saying we don’t do this when
In fact they do do this or vice versa Then that gets really really challenging Um What kind of frustrates me sometimes is The selective Um quoting of things google says so You have an seo who says you know like Uh Something bad about link building but Then like has Because google says this or you know So-and-so’s uh link building strategy Doesn’t work look google even said guest Posts are bad blah blah blah But then you know they have their own Own service providing something similar Or whatever you know so i know who You’re talking about You’ve got to be a little bit um Cautious Not only in listening to google but Listening on people quoting google as if That’s Fact um and and and really just try and Keep an open mind about this this stuff Because Most people and ourselves i mean we’ve Probably done this at some point as well Yeah i’m sure you can if you listen to All the podcasts you can probably find a Dozen examples easily Um but i think uh i think the seo Community As a whole is not the most subtle at
Interpreting what google says as well Um and and what we say like i get quote My go Create my own stuff like very Misinterpreted and i’m like That’s not what i meant um and also Google plays with that as we say so for Example when i say we don’t Intervene on on single queries maybe They intervene on a group of queries Maybe they intervene on the The singular and the plural of a query And maybe uh like a few Different variations and and as a group They intervene on the results and then The answer to that question was correct They don’t they don’t intervene on Individual results Um and actually they call um they call Individual results A single page listing so maybe it’s Multiple page listing that they Intervene on or something like this and It’s like And that would actually not also qualify The answer as True while not being what you think it Is and so you need to be quite careful Uh there was an seo in chiang mai that Told me essentially google uh Lawyers you all the time with the Answers uh and You know like same as the quality rate Or stuff et cetera like it’s not
A hundred percent uh a lie with this aid But like they might Massively misguide you while not like You can’t Like if you take this and you put them In from the truth they’re like well if You actually read it that way i I didn’t lie to you yeah so you need to Be really really careful Um with what they do it’s misleading It’s Dishonest um but it’s also what happens Uh which uh yeah pisses me off a bit Towards google to be honest it’s like It’s um i knew they were not like The nicest company for sure but it’s Just like It’s like working with them seems more And more difficult Basically um as time passes i Kind of suspected or like my my view on The way they handled These things prior to to this was pretty Much the same Um i guess this has really just Confirmed many suspicions That i had um and they came out of it Honestly They did it all right you know their ceo Is quite uh he toes the corporate line Quite well and Doesn’t really push these memories too Much so you know i i don’t think that It’s hurt them in a significant way i i
Think honestly i think the amazon Response is like maybe a bit more Impactful Um and and that is i think where we’re We are likely to see some some things uh Some legislation or some enforcement at Least um Happened first yeah okay well i think we Can Slowly wrap this up do you have any Final words on this Um no not really um i I wouldn’t recommend watching the whole Thing it’s it’s uh It’s a bit of a talking shop and it’s Just it frustrates the hell Would you compare it to season eight of Game of thrones for example Oh game of thrones is much better but uh Wow I don’t know it frustrates the hell out Of me when When people in those situations are Asked questions but Can’t or or or don’t give straight-up Answers and just talk around it and Thank them for how good a question it Was i would love to see You know a few seos invited To uh to question them or even to Craig or even to assist You even to assist The uh the representatives um on the on The scene
This time in their questioning i will Say that there was a the case in Two years ago in 2018 when mark Zuckerberg was was questioned and Uh people were saying well how does Facebook make money if it doesn’t sell Anything is it called excel ad senator Um I i definitely seen that the the Subcommittee here They’ve done their homework so they they They know a lot but They’re about three or four years behind Where where the market’s at i mean These these kind of things have been Talked about by seos by fba sellers like Really for the last three four years um So If any uh elected representatives are Are listening out there um Send us an email and we’ll tell you what To really ask them we’re not even living In the us i don’t think they care that Much Um but like we can connect you with Someone who lives in us and does this Here Um anyway we’re gonna wrap it up and if You enjoy this kind of comment if you Want us to break down the kind of like News that might Impact you as a site owner then uh don’t Forget to subscribe there’s a subscribe Button below on youtube or you can
Subscribe on any podcast platform And drop us a thumb up drop us a comment And if you have any questions Uh you can either come during the live When we release this podcast on monday Evening european time Uh you can just check our channel there Will be an announcement there uh or you Can just drop in the comment below and We will try to get back to you if you Have any questions regarding this all Just auto sites in general we’ll try to Get back to you so drop us a comment Below we’re looking forward to your Comments And we’ll see you next week for another [Music] Episode [Music] You