It’s been 10 years mark and I are Working together I actually only have Six months of professional life Experience without him now from meeting A lot of you guys in person in Shanghai And other places we found that finding a Business partner is something that a lot Of you are looking for after a certain Point in your business most people They’re looking for someone quite Complementary to what they can do and to Complement their skill sets but it’s Quite difficult to find someone and hand Them a chunk of your business in the Century by your personal success to Their performances in today’s episode Mark and I are going to talk about our Partnership that has been lasting for 10 Years some lessons that we found and Some things that you might be able to Use to find yourself a business partner Let’s get started everyone welcome to Your Tony hacker podcast my name is Gayle britain and together my business Partner mark and I we are going to be Talking about well business partnership How’s it going mark I like the I like The inception nature of the topic here Business partners talking about business Partnerships likely have we ran out of Topics to go through I mean almost right We’re like two hundred and twenty Episodes you know something so I guess Okay I guess we can do some remakes now
We can look at the first ones we did and We do that maybe probably just disagree With ourselves then someone’s gonna miss A dress on our Facebook group to tell us That we disagree with ourselves and we Make an episode to explain that as well And then you know we have a whole little Thing I think I can walk but before we Get started with that podcast actually I Just wanna remind people this podcast is On all the audio platforms so if you Want to go on 45 if you want to go on Google podcast on Apple podcast or on Soundcloud you can find a podcast there And subscribe to it rather and get it Automatically downloaded to your device Whenever it comes out or you can join The party on YouTube when we lose it on Monday we actually have a live chat and We are like here mark and I we answer People’s questions and it’s like Something cool happening and you can see Our beautiful faces on the YouTube Channel as well so that’s like two Bonuses that you get for watching on YouTube so and if you’re on YouTube if You’re watching on right now there’s a Subscribe button below so don’t forget To click it and if you enjoyed the Content thumbs ups is also nice comments As well also helps the SEO we’re trying To grow a YouTube channel pretty Aggressively this year so all these Things really help so if you enter the
Comment You’re here you might as well pick these Balance and thank you for that so now That we’ve done begging for likes and Subscribes and all that let’s actually Talk about the podcast episode and I Wanted to tell it with like a little bit Of drama because I think it’s more fun You know so my question to you was What’s the most annoying thing is Working with in working with me it’s Good okay before you answer I just want To say mark and I don’t really talk About these things so it’s kind of like Coming up I guess I have no idea what He’s gonna say even though I have a Pretty good idea but but yeah let’s see Your creative process okay you need to Develop because so what I mean by that Is Gail’s quite good at coming up with New ideas new concepts starting new Things but the process of getting there Is quite unstructured and there are Times when he just goes away and like Does something have no idea what it just Does something for like a month and at The end of it not always but sometimes Comes up with something and you know More often than not it’s it’s great but During that time it’s just so incredibly Frustrating because in order to sort of Dedicate or hunt or as close to a Hundred percent of his time as possible On doing this thing that’s creating
Something just being being this creative I’m talking here about maybe creating a New blueprint for authority hacker for Back in the day when we first launched Authority hacker Pro or our course is Like a lot of these these kind of like Startup well like I’m like I’m gonna go Through these guys or something like That and it’s just like okay see you Later and it’s basically like okay I’m Just his his ideas okay I’m switching Off everything else and everything I Don’t care what happens you can’t Contact me you can’t speak to me I won’t Speak to you if you ask me a question I’ll get like I’ll give you a really Short snappy mad answer maybe once a day You take care of everything else I’ll go Figure this out hopefully and it’s just It’s incredibly frustrating to be able To to not be able to like like for me I I I could never leave a situation like Like that but and the first first few Tip first few times this happened I was Like what the is this guy doing Honestly but as I said more often than Not what comes out of that is actually Really really good and even the few Times that something hasn’t happened or Whatever I think overall it’s it’s kind Of worth it it’s just at the time jus I Think in large parts of my personality I Like to be quite structured and Organized and everything goes in this
Place and at the right time and all I Kind of think it’s yeah it’s it just Kind of like agitates me man I can Understand it’s like actually the next Question was like oh what’s the best Thing of walking with me I guess kind of Like I don’t think he’s boss but like You know it’s like I guess it kind of Like it’s a double-edged shot but my Answer for the best thing with you is Your patience thanks ray that you don’t Get mad for it it’s like I think that so Many people would go freaking crazy Working with me um a few have already I [Laughter] Think quite a lot of people have already So so is that it’s not thinking it’s Just based on facts yeah But yeah it’s like now I would try to Like answer that question for you as Well with like him I think sometimes You’re – like you’re too tight to your Processes to the point where you like You know what I mean it’s like the ships Sinking and you’re like oh but like we Have to go through this checklist we’re Still gotta keep it clean like what the like it it’s like just like use Your like just just get out and like Like look at the situation and be a bit Like you know assess it critically you Know and I’m not saying that you don’t Have a critical so I’m just saying Sometimes you get hooked to these habits
And you’re unable to get out I think the That’s a really interesting point so I Like first of all completely agree I Think that a lot of people when they Work by themselves they will experience That or they will they will do that that Is at least for me without shadow Without one of the biggest benefits of Working with a business partner is Someone who can like pull you out of That cycle that you can’t really like CIO of kind of thing and that is that Has helped us more times than I can Count Yeah okay well that’s getting weird now It’s like it’s getting weird and that Was just the beginning of a podcast but I see that’s quite interesting because I Think you highlight something that will Probably come up is like skills that are Complimentary and I think like we’re Like it’s funny because like we’re able To like meet on the rational level on a Lot of things but like everything is Completely different basically I’m and The rational point of connection allows Us to walk together otherwise with hate Each other we like things like they’re Seeing that between mark and I that Works very well is that we never hang up The phone mad at each other or anything Like that we kind of like always reach a Point of agreement where there’s just Like a logical argument and yellow is
Like okay that makes sense and it was Just like just go for it basically and I Don’t think like one has the ascendant Over the other something like that like Sometimes it’s Kim winning these Sometimes it’s me winning this and it’s Okay and it’s like and there’s no ego Attached to it as well yeah I think that A lot of the points we’re gonna we’re Gonna talk about today Underpin that process or that that Concept we see it play out time and time Again it was a little trickier I think In the beginning when we didn’t know Each other or have as much experience Working with each other but yeah it’s It’s sort of evolved quite well I think Over over the years should we do this One about what’s what’s the best thing About working with the other bat what Was that that’s what we just did No no so for me that’s that what that Wasn’t the flipside okay for me like I Am someone who struggles to turn nothing Into something so if I’m looking at like A blank screen or A blank idea I find it quite tricky to Actually make progress in implementing Something for the first time because I Want to make it perfect and Gayle’s kind Of I’m gonna call it Salinas or like Messiness or lack of lack of care or Attention to detail while in some Situations I can find infuriating I
Think in many situations it’s actually Good because he can make a really rough First version but it’s like it’s done And once it’s there I see see all the Points I see everything that’s wrong With it okay we fix this this is in this Okay done so again kind of complementary Skills did very different mindsets and Tolerances but like being appreciative / Tolerant of the other to the point where It’s it’s kind of beneficial I think That’s a dynamic that under underlines Oh I agree it’s like for me it’s like Kind of the everything it’s like I get To create a bunch of I don’t have To take care of it which I love because I honestly like once I’m done you know It’s like I’m the guy that just does Something and I’m like you know what This is boring I just wanted something Else and I just throw it away and then Address room like you to complete Different direction And then I’m like mark here’s that new Thing just because and that’s what Happened for I could show you a Skyscraper for example right it’s like I Worked on it for like a month I’m like you know what I found this Really cool angle it’s working it just Built like a twenty links or something And sent barely a few emails and it’s The same email every time I walks and Then you took it and you just optimized
It basically and then you made your own And the blueprint that we know etc so It’s like typical of like how something Like that work so I think it highlights That it works because it’s like so Complementary but at the same time There’s this is the level on which we Are both where we’re able to communicate You know we both go down to it like you Go down to that level I go up to a level And then we understand that level and we Can talk and then we just go back to Where we were you know it’s interesting I don’t know too many too many other People who have been going in Partnership for for as long as we have In this Bay yeah I agree in online Marketing Maybe maybe Torben and Kristian I mean They’re a development company it’s kind Of a different but yeah there’s not There’s not a lot I think there’s this Many reasons for that and I think we Should go into the points for people Because I think it’s gonna be quite easy To pinpoint what I see most people don’t Do the same way as us and whites lasted For us maybe at the end we can also talk About like the choices we’ve made and Maybe the downsides of it as well like This no everything’s perfect and Everything so let’s start with the first One which is like what do you do after You start a partnership but I could like
What do you bring when is the best time To start working together for us it was Quite easy because we both had nothing So so it was it was pretty low risk that Like we both brought nothing and then we Just built something you know where There’s often an imbalance here I think Is if one person’s bringing knowledge or You know hard work and the other person Is bringing capital which in in our Field is is less common and say it’s Quite easy to get a bootstrap an Authority site you can do most of Content writing most of the WordPress Design stuff even if you’re not designer Most of the link building yourself Without too much money of course having A bit it’s gonna be helpful but it’s not Like if you need to invest in some Machinery or whatever stock to to stock Your e-commerce store whatever yeah it’s Like usually the way I see it is like The partnerships I see happening in the Other sites faces people like someone’s Really good at content and someone’s Really good at link building like very Often I see that like someone that has a Link building service partners with Someone that loves doing the content That hates handling the link building And can be bothered etc and and now Works pretty well and I think it’s not a Bad idea because like on the business Point of view it makes sense
But on the personality point of view I Think it’s not that simple and that People might be struggling to like Understand each other how do the same Incentives as well right because let’s Say the person that comes from a link Building point of view they they Probably have like a service going on Agency or something so they’re wearing Another business maybe that’s your only Business and like they’re taking a chunk Of your business well you’re not taking A chunk of the other Business and it’s it’s getting weird you Know yeah it kind of feel like when you Go into at the start accumulate Oh what Are we bringing what are you bringing But really it’s more like well what After you start the partnership and for The next 10 years or beyond what are you Gonna what are you going to contribute At that point and if someone’s bringing A bunch of money but it’s not it’s gonna Do off the amount they contribute Over time as a proportion of the total Contribution of money and effort gets Lower and lower and lower and lower and It’s constantly getting lowered to the Point where the other person can be like Well actually why am I still doing this For this dude you know it’s like like I Gets dude dude start my own business yep Keep a hundred percent I think that the The perspective of working ten years
Together is not as I always true like I Think in the auto size space there’s a Lot of like people who aim to exit and Things like that I might be walking Together like two or three years and Then they’re like happy to end it They’re like we have several friends That did that we met many eight from Members that did that as well in Chiang Mai and and I was okay like you don’t Have to find someone that you will work With for the rest of your life like it’s Just it’s just yeah just like something That makes sense in the moment you know It’s an interesting one though as well Because I mean we have there were there Were lose one point certainly we sold Our agency yeah we could happen and when We we sold a one of our sites last year The start of last year and you know Those are those are two kind of big Exits but I don’t never even really like Occurred to me like oh this guy Let’s I could do this myself it was just Like okay well what are we gonna do that I mean me neither but like I think it’s The thing is like people don’t always Get along as well as we do and so as a Result yeah it’s like yeah some people Like just like it’s just like a walk Colleague or something and they don’t Mind then and actually at the end I want To talk about like space working with Friends stuff like that etc it’s quite
Important as well and we had like Varying degrees of experience there but Yeah I think I think it’s fine to like Not I like it it’s like it’s like when We started working together initially we Had no intention for it I mean I didn’t Know how long he would last I didn’t Have a plan but like it’s not like I Knew that it would last 10 years you Know what I mean like you shouldn’t Start be like oh my We have to like be walking all this time Together whatever it’s just like well See how it goes and then if it goes well A great you know and then that’s it so I Think yeah like look for people that Make sense but the things like what Makes sense for the business might not Make sense for you in personality it’s Quite important because you’re gonna end Up making decisions together if you Start like it’s basically self not self Management right it’s like if your Motivation is low because you don’t you Know happy with who you’re working You’re not gonna do as well etc and it’s A real business cost to that like that Will show in your bank account and I Think that people underestimate that They just look at the rationale of what Makes sense for the business partner With people that don’t necessarily Anguish have different personalities Maybe people that like to take the
Ascendant over the other etc and like You know there’s all sorts of dynamics That can happen security interactions And I think it’s quite important to Align both on a business side and on the Personality side which is why it’s Freaking hard I think it’s like I think We got quite lucky a little got quite Lucky the truth is worse through Business partners initially and and and One’s gone for a long time at this point So it’s like it’s not like everything Went perfectly as well and actually it Was the other business partner Struggling with the way I was working Like Mark had the patience but he didn’t Basically so yeah I mean that’s that’s That’s pretty much exactly what happened Yeah So so yeah you know it’s that’s what Happens um I want to talk about Incentives as well because I think again When you talk about business Partnerships it’s like for us I mean I’m Pretty happy to say that if you surely Like we’re like 5050 like whatever like Half of the money or half of the money We distribute to shareholder goes to me Half of the money will be distributed Shelters goes to you and so it’s it’s Pretty like simple like it’s like it’s If the company does well we just profit Equally from it but like the problem is With existing businesses or people who
Bring money etc then very often people Are gonna go for uneven partnerships Where you give 10% of the company or 5% Of the company And you know but the problem is like People don’t walk five percent like when You start getting equity like you Basically expect it to work a hundred Like to be really focused on this oh you Know extremely focused on this actually And people expect that especially the Majority shareholder expects that from You So we found from my experience with People I know that these kind of Partnerships that are unequal tend to be Quite difficult to maintain over time Because it’s kind of like the money Thing that you mentioned basically it’s Exactly the same thing like equity is Money so it’s like when you give equity To someone essentially give them a Virtual sum of money that you can spend And then that value over time decreases Well the commitment of that person that Has been given equity like a small Percentage is expected to just be Maintained over time or even increase For maybe a little bit more shares and It’s yeah it’s like do you have examples Where I walked through I mean I guess You know for Facebook and stuff like That yeah sure it works well I’m before Like smaller size yeah so I I think when
When other people are coming to into the Business maybe later on after it’s Already established then I wouldn’t Necessarily bring them in and the same Almost certainly wouldn’t bring them the Same ownership level because you know All of the risk and all the work and Getting off off off the ground would Need to be accounted for in that way but I think what we’re talking about here is If you’re all starting a business at the Same time and there’s some kind of Unequal yeah you know from the ground up And there’s some kind of unequal split Then it can kind of be a bit weird if if Things start taking off I’d say but this This key point really goes hand-in-hand With something which we we kind of said Right at the start and we hadn’t really Like kind of talked about it too much Since but we made an agreement like no Outside project it was actually the Other guy who was in partnership with us Like no I said one thing that’s less you Know fine I mean everything else really Going on anyway but that meant that Whenever we start a new project like When we first when we had an agency and We started our authority sized business It was just all under the same company Only some same umbrella because it was Like well you know if we’re gonna start Another project of course it’s going to Be in here so I think that in in common
Combination with the Equality of Ownership has as really just like killed Any any potential recall like closed for Concerned slash flashpoint That could erupt from from from from From some other project coming to mix Yeah I think it’s like something that Shocks people a lot when I explained to Him because second it happens often when We talk about personal investment sixty Bollocky why don’t you buy sites Etcetera I’m like I’m not allowed Personally to buy site it’s I’m Literally not allowed to like have Another project on the site like it’s People like oh why don’t you invest and Like buy site on Empire flippers and you Know fix it you could easily do that I’m Like no if you very say it has to be on The company level I’m literally like our Agreement is like I’m not allowed to Work in anything Otto decides if it’s Not on the company level I can invest in Financial markets I can buy your house I Can do all these other things that are Like not competing with the main Business and I’m not allowed to do that And people like what like it’s and they Feel like it’s a massive amount of Freedom that’s taken from them when when I explain to that to people that this is How we do things and but I also Explained to them that this is why we’re Still working together because you know
I mean there has been stories of like Sides of I was not doing so well etc in These times if you have side projects That are doing okay themselves it’s the Perfect time to like stop argument stop Not committing as much to the main Business look at the other stuff that’s Doing better and then just let Everything go to and instead of Like fixing it together you just yet It’s falls apart and you back we were You are and then the other side just Thanked six months later you know and And you’re just you’re just my stuff so Um yeah it is it is I think the most Constraining and understood and Understoo thoughts re of the way we work Together is that I outside of outside of The company we own together I am NOT Allowed to work in any other side I’m Not even like you know people want to Pay me for consulting for example Don’t even do that like it’s like at Some point I did and I put the money Back in a company so that we would split Fifty-fifty you know so that’s the kind Of constraints I guess that it takes to Actually maintain to be sure that you Maintain the conditions where you both Be happy to commit a hundred percent to That project you have together so is the Cost of that I think I think on that as Well you know the way you say oh I’m not Alive I don’t allow myself you know yeah
So as a company we obviously could buy a Bunch of sites flip them you know invest In invest in them grow them you do all This kind of stuff it’s a it’s a good Business model a lot of people doing Right now we could do it we have all the Skills all the capital everything we Need to just take the time but there’s Yeah the the one kind of constraint are The Boston that we have is time and I’m Sure a lot of people who are listening To this will will be able to relate Closely to this one when I say that like Time is the most precious thing etc so I Think one thing which a lot of online Marketers do is they kind of have their Fingers in too many pies so they’re Trying to do too many different things It’s very easy to say yes to a project Once you have a set amount of skill it’s Very easy to look at something say oh Yeah I can IQ I can make money that or I could turn The site around or I could do that People are coming to you so hey do you Want to partner on this do you want to Do this you want to do this all right And and saying no to all this is one of The most important skills I think you Can have so our partnership framework if You want to call it that kind of Fortunately for us has inherently forced Us to some extent to say no to a lot of Opportunities now we still have a lot of
These kind of opportunities coming in to Us as a business and in the past we Would probably said yes to a lot more of Them than we do now for the last of two And a half years yes most of our Quarterly meetings have been about what Can we stop doing what can we say no to What can we how can we get more focused How can we do less things and doesn’t Mean we’re We’re not working as hard but it’s just We’re much more focused on on doing one Or a few things very very well so I Think it’s been kind of it’s our Partnership structures gonna force us to An extent to that a bit more than them Perhaps if we were just working Individually and could could kind of Like say yes to whatever I think this That’s what I took to the extreme when I Take my stuff and I just ignore Everything else it’s like internally I Say no to everything and I just like Focus on one thing like with like Literally like like even like paulina Comes in talks to me I’m like no can’t Talk and just like ignore the whole day And just focus on that so yeah I think This has told us focus this has you know It’s like come strains I think there’s a Cool like that I came up with a quote But like it’s like constraints makes you More creatives or something like it’s Like artists that say that like when you
Have to create art and constraint you Actually better off and I think it’s Kind of the same here it’s like it Forces you to do something better and You it’s a principle that is inherently Good for a healthy relationship and then It forces you to work together and then And if it doesn’t work out then you’re You’re free to like have how’s the Discussion about that as well and just Like you know do something else but it’s Nice too I think when you start to try To walk that way Even if I know people are going to freak Out when I hear that and they’re gonna Be like what the hell like you Essentially give up your freedom and Yeah to some extent um now let’s talk About I think you had the point on Accepting the other person’s difference And I think we kind of highlighted a lot Of that already but anything you wanted To send that yeah just the generally you As much as like someone else’s quirks or Way of working our mentality might Irritate you but you have to remember That it’s not really it’s not generally A good thing in a business partner if There’s two of the same people you don’t Want to cloner yourself for someone with The exact same mindset skill set Mentality and approaches you have Because you and I say that that kind of Like looking to myself or anyone else
You you’re not perfect Surprise surprise there there are other People who have different mindsets Different skill sets which which when Combined with your own like the some of The some of the two parts is greater Than each one individually is that make Sense it’s kind of like in the tech Startup you know the the Silicon Valley Type one you have the business guy and The coder and they’ll work together and Do this kind of a career this crits Company together which is which is great But they will like annoy the hell out of Each other in the way the way they work If you ever seen the TV show Silicon Valley you’ll you’ll know what I mean With with some of those extreme kind of Personality types that you can you can Have in that situation I think these Kind of jobs this come from from Different personalities as well like Developers tend to have you know a range Of personalities but like that’s you Know more introverted more like cetera And like the business people tend to be Moist so it really clash to some extent If you have different personalities if You have two similar personalities it’s Likely you also have similar skill sets As well so it’s kind of a weird one so You need to accept one or the other and If you’re if you’re constantly running Into these issues it’s not because the
Other person is just an although That that may be the case but most Likely it’s not most likely it’s just Your communication structure or your you Have communication issues basically so You can’t express yourself you you don’t Know if something’s wrong and you don’t Know it but you don’t know how to say That to the other person or you you you The thought hasn’t manifested itself in Your brain or your communication avenues Are are not good enough or strong enough That each person can actually talk to The other person properly kind of thing There’s a good dynamic there as well so If you are actually really good friends Which is often the case when people Start business together you know they’ve Known each other a long time you and I Didn’t we’ve known each other like two Weeks or three weeks three months early Was that you know I mean probably a Month yes maybe a mug either way they Don’t tell you why if you remember I Used to live in a hostel because I could Not pay the deposit for my apartment Kuala Lumpur and we decided to start That business when I was still to being That pasta which was within my first Months of Kuala Lumpur because then I Got my face re and I was able to get an Apartment so in that case you know we’d Know each other less than a month and we Decided our business together so if if
We’d known each other 22 years at that Point I feel like the dynamic would have Been very different because you’re Overlaying this kind of personal and Business relationship and things can get A bit iffy and in those yeah I think it Was good actually to like not know each Other for too long because there’s also That that kind of like distance that you Have at the beginning where you just Meet someone you as well or you like um Like there’s not one that like it’s just Like there’s not a lot of history that Could like come back or whatever and Yeah it works perfectly in that cases it Was nice to not know each other for – About the same time you need to know People to some extent when you share an Existing business which but you will Know them probably more in a personal in A professional type of way I mean I Guess some people do ring like you know Their wives or something as well exit Out which by oh yeah let’s talk about That Like like would you do a business Partnership with your wife let me let Let me just clarify that in case you for Watch so I’m talking about the business Partnership like like you and I have Where this is our full-time job we’re Both a hundred percent all in and then Some for a long long time I I don’t Think I would want to happen with with
With my wife who is at home all day Works at home you know we hang out a lot We spend quite a lot of time together And I think adding this other dynamic to Our relationship would I don’t know I Just feel like this is kind of like a Separated time where where I can just Like focus on doing one thing and that Other dynamic doesn’t doesn’t kind of Come into it God this is really really not going to Sound great But but I do feel like just because of The nature of what we do starting a Business entrepreneurship online Marketing that kind of thing it wouldn’t Surprise me if at some point she starts Some kind of business in different area For sure but where I have a certain Skill set and knowledge and experience To contribute help up as you come right Right so I I in that sense like a Hundred percent helper basically you Would do it as a site thing but not your Main activity like I like but the thing Is like just to be clear because we said We’re not allowed to decide things it Would just be like you know helping out Like I’ve also helped out my fiance to Start a website it’s like I take no Money from this I don’t get any personal Gains or anything it’s just like being Nice you know and just helping out so I Think in that case yeah but I think you
Touched on something director had in my Notes which is managing space when you Work together which I don’t think a lot Of people talk about so there’s kind of Like two ways you’re gonna have a Business partnership right so on one end You’re gonna have a professionally built One what you essentially recruited Someone any interest of the business and You’re gonna just be in a room with them It’s gonna be your core because you Don’t know them and you’re gonna have to Start making decisions together and it’s Okay I’d go great not so great or Whatever but it’s just you’re gonna Discover them as you do on the other Side is you will know you will know Someone for a long time let’s say and Then you start working with them and I Said I mentioned your wife but could be Like a friend it could be anything and Well you’re gonna have to discover Another side of them as well which is Like the more professional side of Things like focusing on work having a Goal etc like and you might discover Things that you wish you never knew but But the thing is you will need to manage Space in that sense it’s like it’s Pretty weird like at some point when we Started actually we lived together we Had the same friends and and we had the Same businesses also we essentially Spent 24 hours together except when you
Were going your room to sleep and I was Going in my room to sleep and eventually It became a little bit too much And I moved out actually also because I Was making a mess in the kitchen let’s Be honest but but the thing is like yeah You cannot get to this point of overdose Where it could actually extract the Business and I think I think that’s That’s obviously like people not Necessarily together etc but you need to Give space to the other person while Being familiar enough so that you can Have every discussion you need to have Wisdom and not feel intimidated by that So if you recruit someone on the Business side then you need to build That intimacy to the point where you Could be like we’re up right now This is or whatever and the Person is not going to take it Personally or whatever and like you able To have a discussion in in the most Brutally honest way possible and they Will they would be ok with that Yes this is so Scott this is so so Crucial because if you’re if you’re Listening service right now and you’re Working in like a large organization Large company you’ll be dealing with Corporate politics you’ll you’ll think Something you’ll notice something you’ll Have an idea but then there’ll be a Filter which you have to apply so that
You don’t offend people piss people off Break HR rules do all this do this like Corporate when you’re starting A business you you gained a massive Competitive advantage by not having to Have that filter in place generally Speaking when I’m talking to Gail Whatever come here mouth is raw and Unfiltered and vice versa if something’s like you are not getting spare will Get you will know about it Really damn quickly and you have to be Ok with that but you will learn very Quickly that even if it kind of like Hurts a bit or hurts your ego a bit it’s Good to put that aside because Especially you’re kind of like working Together both have the same vision and You can just like get so much more done By being able to be like genuinely Honest with with with someone and yeah God I’ve totally forgot about how that Is in in the real world not just that But you also don’t want to go too much The other way so you also Wanna be too much in other each other’s Feeds like you wanna give space to People so like you can express yourself Like well you go and recruit people or Build build a system like I don’t come And like I’m not over your shoulder Checking it out and I’m letting you come To me with it when it’s ready when You’ve already talked about it etc you
Know provided a reasonable time frame or Something and vice versa like if I’m Working on something from going for six Months you’ll probably just start Questioning things but you know what I Mean so it’s like that’s the thing it’s Like the if you’re working with a friend Then you essentially need to increase The distance with that person and if you Are working with someone that you’re Unfamiliar with you need to reduce that Distance I need to keep there’s Basically a range of distance between The two people sometimes it’s too close Sometimes it’s too far and the optimal Range of working together is like Somewhere in between which you don’t Have a lot of relationships in your life That are in that range right you either Have friends that you have that very Close range with and you have the people You work with when you’re like too far Away so it’s like you need to find that Range kind of input it takes time to Find it it takes time it’s not simple But once you find it then it’s very it’s It’s good because you don’t feel Oppressed but at the same time you feel Like you can have real open discussions I think mark is impressed write a Business book about this actually yeah Like companies I think it’s like a Sociologist talking about power distance And I guess would be linked to that okay
Another thing that I want to talk about In terms of business partnership that is Really important is building your shared Vision and understanding the long term Goals of the other person um especially Even if you have a business trip for Like the partnership for like three Years four years whatever like your goal Is to sell a website let’s say you you Get in business together and you want to Sell the website in three years The problem is how much you want to sell The website for maybe one of you wants To sell it for 10 million and the other One will be have you is 600k And the problem is that the course of Action of the company is going to vary Massively depending on these two visions Like one’s gonna have to like spend a Lot more money upfront and grow traffic My aggressively and take more risks etc So that they can reach that super high Valuation that they wanna reach while The other will probably be more Conservative try to put some money in The bank while running the website so That you get the money from the exit and You also get the money that you collects Rather worse at websites life etc and if You’re gonna be working together long Term it’s not just the vision of the Business but well do you want to go Personally where are you gonna be at the Point where you’re happy with your
Situation do you want to go all-in and Spend all your free time working on that Business or do you want a balanced life And be able to do other things etcetera Because if one of you is like working Like you know 12 hours a day non-stop Like not trying and the other ones like You know what I want You know like work-life balance I want To work like five hours a day and then I Want to go to the gym and I want to Learn how to do poetry because I’ve Really wanted to do that etc I like I’m Going to sort of change the tangent of That a bit because it’s something we Experienced like five ten years ago with A lot of people or you you know even Still these days a lot of people with Online businesses they want to like make A decent living so they’re making you Know a solid four figures mid four Figures or more a month and then they Just want to travel party chase girls Like kind of live the the Rockstar life Three to seven thousand dollars a month Kind of wrench where people just like Kind of like stop walking and just like – and then these people that go beyond And like go away beer and and and like I’m not trying don’t get me wrong I’m Not criticising there was a point in my Life when that was my objective that was My goal that was my dream obviously not Anymore but I I think that you just have
To be on the same page as the other People you’re working with and that Extends not just with your business Partner but also your your team so if They if if that is your goal to live and Travel and party then cool And you need to make sure the other People are on board with that but if You’re like trying to say oh I’m super Committed let’s grow this company to Eight figures and all this kind of thing And you’re still living that lifestyle Then there’s a kind of disconnect Between your intention and reality and It creates kind of kind of tension we Haven’t really discussed too often like What our vision or lifestyle or goals And these kinds of things are it comes Up every now and then so like I’m not Really sure like how we how shared ours I mean it seems to be relatively shared But yeah it’s not intentionally shared Does that make sense we treat this like A video game and it’s like you know what I’m vlogging every day I’ve just played A video game and that reminds me of like When I was playing MMORPG zone over the Teenager zone That’s exactly what I’m seeing right now It’s like I’m just have you playing the Game right now and I’m like you know Trying to get a higher score in high Score because otherwise there’s no Incentive to play the game right so I
Think for us that’s kind of what we Agreed on now in terms of like how much More you want to make it as equal boost Like it’s like even if you had like a You know millions of dollars like you Would upgrade your life with like it’s Like I think we’re both okay with the Life we have now I don’t feel like I’m a Failure after passing 30 or something so It’s like financial goals are important We definitely wanna make money but There’s no like lifestyle chasing Anymore or not and I think there’s also Kind of the the way you get there so yes We definitely want to want to have Pretty sizeable kind of wealth and that Net worth levels you know financial Freedom these kind of things longer-term Are definitely up there But we’re not willing to sacrifice Ourselves like just work 90 hours a week Every week no vacation no rest every day That weekend’s Never talk to the family have shitty Habits and lifestyles not take time to Go to the gym not do anything that or Even in the like time space like in the Kind of integrity how we sell our Products which kind of products were Promoting on our sites like are they Helping people or hurting people and are They bit scammy and like we tend to Really steer far away far away from the I didn’t feel like status finding at
Least feels like jvzoo and stuff we Won’t do that Don’t let subscribe yeah we don’t we Won’t do that but like it’s like it Would be easy to make a lot of money and Even on other sites like holy we Could have made a lot of money on like Diet stuff and I think part of it so There’s there’s generally a long term Vision there so by being honest and Having high levels integrity we earn a Lot of trust and long term that starts To pay back and you know builds your Brand all this kind of stuff so it’s not Just like oh yeah we’re giving all this Up to be honest and pure there is kind Of instill in a different incentive it’s Just a longer-term incentive I think Just as people we’re both quite sort of Straight up I would say like we we don’t Tend to embellish too many things when We tell stories or when we talk about Things and it really like grinds my Gears when people kind of lie and and Say like we’re telling the story about Some situation and you know the friend I’m talking about who who always used to Do this so yeah and that that is just Something which I we don’t want to do I Tell the story a lot but I feel like I Would have got into online marketing Years earlier had all the people in the Mid-2000s who were selling courses and Memberships and all this stuff about how
To do it not had super sleazy sales Pages with like pictures of cash and Ferraris and all this stuff which is Like the standards so they tended still Like Tai Lopez right right right I He wasn’t the first person who did the Loads and loads of people who have this Approach and I don’t like it just Something about it instantly makes me Just want to be able to see that the Sunday family dinner and explain to you That what you’re doing and not feel Ashamed or like not have your uncle call Us camera when you’re passing the Potatoes you know yeah and it’s it’s not Just from oh wouldn’t that be nice kind Of thing a friend of mine who was in a Business partnership He had like I mean he had his own issues But he had like a proper mental Breakdown after a while like serious from I believe they were doing a Lot of kind of like scammy stuff and I’m What no I don’t know that any of the Specifics but that was just became too Much for him so you I’m not saying That’s gonna happen to everyone in every Situation but there certainly I sleep Quite easy at night is what I’m saying I’m not too worried about anything super Bad happening or like you know I don’t Feel bad about any of the products we Recommend or anything like that ok let’s
Close this one and I want to talk about Managing employees and having a team Together as well ok um because that’s Another important one and I think it’s Easy to make mistakes there it’s very Confusing for someone to have two bosses Or three or four or something and so two Captains one ship is never a good idea And and especially when you’re a small Company let’s say you have like a Partnership with two people and then There’s two other staff or something Then it’s quite convenient for like I Mean people everyone will talk to Everyone basically and then one person We go to like one of the founders will Go to that employee and say please do This and the other will say no please This is important and you will just Fight through that employee or something And all the employee would be very Confused and overall much more unhappy About their jobs and this is the kind of Like stories that they tell also Descended you know like how they have to Go see the neighbors idiots and and so I Think when you you have a partnership is Important to essentially split the team Like speed or responsibility team right So it’s like people in our I talk to everyone as well and you talk To everyone but like I know when you’re Their boss and I’m and it’s like they Know it as well and then if I’m trying
To work with mo toxic cetera they’d Still know that there if I ask them Something they’ll either ask you to like Make sure that it works in the schedule Or vice versa like if you need something From someone that works under me then They will come and ask me and then we’ll Just make sure they all fits in etc but There’s a very clear definition of like Who is under who you know a clear Structure that is that is true but I Just want to make it clear we’re we Don’t have an organization where if I Want to get someone whose reports into Gayle to do something I don’t go to Gayle and say hey can I ask them to do This for every little thing if it’s a Big project that’s gonna take a lot of Time like what yeah of course but it’s Um food easy now yeah you need you need Some kind of like freedom to just oh hey Can you share this link or send this to Me or something like that if it’s a Quick job then yeah so that’s kind of Like how how it is at the moment I think I mean maybe our employees here maybe They should do it but every time I’m Kidding guys just talk about us oh god I’m afraid what it’s like there are Emojis with our faces actually so like Whenever like I say something that’s Typical to me or mark says something That’s difficult to him they just put The emoji of like Mark’s face of my face
Or something like this so I can’t Imagine what the first guys would look Like in the past when we were much worse Than we we are and we still definitely Have a lot to learn but we’re much much Worse than we are people management and Organization structure and stuff it was Like it got a bit messy at times when There wasn’t really too clear of a Definition of who works for who and what The structure was and we played around With various different kinds of models And try it tried a bunch of stuff and as Much as you try as much as we try and Define it and as much as we say it’s all Organized and stuff now there is an Element of you just have to kind of like Be the employees are working for you and Just have to kind of like be a little Bit okay with it if it gets too bad then Sit obviously that’s an issue and Need to fix that or they need to say Something but they still have to be okay With kind of being pooled at both ends Just a little bit Otherwise it’s you end up with like two Rigid of an organization and you can’t End up doing doing anything fair enough Um we can’t going strong notes right now But like I wanted to ask you if you if I Die tomorrow do you do you like would You keep running the business alone Oh Would you look – would you do a business Partnership again I don’t think I would
Do another business partnership no Because you’re irreplaceable no because It I think it’s a different dynamic when You start something together versus You’ve been I’ve been running something In this hypothetical situation for ten Years and then someone else who’s been Running another business or working Somewhere else is doing something else Comes in and and does it so I probably Wouldn’t do it but I honestly don’t know I don’t have a plan B for I don’t know Or do you have a business you don’t Recommend it It depends where your business is that Really depends are you in that startup Phase because a lot of businesses are Still trying to figure out how to what Their business model is how they should Be making money how they should be Operating even some businesses of like Started scaling they’ve started scaling On a like all the stuff or like Improve all the imperfections and it’s Still a bit of a mess Our business is still in many areas Quite a bit of a mess but I it’s in the Last two three years we certainly Figured out a lot more compared to Two to four or five years ago so I Wouldn’t it’s a case-by-case basis Really you can’t say there’s definitely A time to do and there’s definitely Times not to do it all I know is that
The vast vast majority of people who go Into business partnerships end up Exiting those partnerships at one point Or another there are I mean I could Count on one hand a number of successful Partnerships that go go on beyond like Three four years that that I know in Surveys so if we sell all our business To And the day after I die then what do you Do means you have no business yeah I Mean it depends on the terms of the NDA That we’d have to sign when we sold Really so but that would I presume be Structured with an idea of what what to Do next So don’t know really yeah but it’s it’s An it’s an interesting point actually Because I just just had this like panic Go through my my mind it’s like if one Of us dies like there’s so much like It’s hit by a bus or there’s so many Like how the you’re gonna like log Into all these accounting tools and you Know what I mean like yeah we should Take care of that okay well that is a Bit of a weird way to and is it any Question you want to ask me about Business partnerships because I’m trying To like quiz you on this but because It’s like it’s like we’re really exposed To that and I think we’ve done more than Most people so I think it’s quite Interesting to go beyond like a list of
Tips but rather talk about yeah I have a Question have you ever met someone in The last 10 years that you thought this Person I could go into business with Them Yes one who are London finishes from Ductile I can I think it would work Really well but like it’s similar Personality to you actually very system Oriented etc well it’s not very calm Like patience so yeah I think that would Probably do one guy I could have workers Obviously don’t think it’s ever gonna Happen but if you want to go in Partnership with him highly recommended Yeah I think I don’t think I have met Someone I’d be like yeah I would I would Go in a business partnership with them Then that’s that’s a slightly different Answer than if the question was if it Were ten years ago who of the people you Now know would have made a good visitor Partner then lots of people I think But now ten years on I think it’s just It’s it’s it’s hard when you kind of Like work a certain way I think it’s I Don’t know if anyone’s ever done this But like in a in a partnership with Someone for ten years and then like go And work a different business partner For the next ten years or something it Would just be there would be such a like Comparison dynamic I think it’s more Than that we think like we grew our
Skills together and they grew in a weird Way like in a way in a way that it’s Like it works together because we kind Of like group like we compensated for Each other but if the other ones not Here like I’m still missing an absolute Ton of like accounting stuff and like All the like more businesses that you Just take care of all that so I have Like I can log on zero and I get the Idea of how you upload your expenses of It and with them I can read a balance Sheet I can do that but this is such an Interesting dynamic with us so because I Talked to earlier about the Silicon Valley you have the business guy in the Tech guy like when people ask oh what’s Your role gala was like how do you guys Do I’m like it’s not a line like that The line is like a massive zigzag and Like there are certain areas that I was Just okay that’s obviously gales gonna Do that and and obviously mark will do That but there’s so many things that Kind of like there’s there’s this gray Overlap area and that’s because it’d be Essentially like you know what I’m Thinking about when I think it’s you Know it’s a talk about it I was gonna Say it’s I was gonna say I mean in terms Of terrible analogy is like all your Analogies are terrible so now I was Thinking like you know like it’s kind of Like a plan that relies on these on
These things when it grows but I do Think you take this thing up I just Falls flat you know like it’s like a Like the tomatoes for example when you Grow tomatoes they took it you my Grandparents were growing tomatoes in Their garden okay so when you grow Tomatoes you’re actually sitting them You tie them to a stick so that they can Oh yeah yeah So like essentially that’s that’s what Each of us sees it’s like we’re Basically the support for the other add The tomato at the same time next to it And so if you take the soup olive it Just just completely falls flat Basically and that’s why I think it Would be hard actor and I think it’s Something to consider in the long term Of business partnerships is that Actually you kind of like adapt to the Other person to the point where would be Quite hard to work with other people and So it’s like if we both decide to like Stop working together tomorrow it would Be more difficult for us to do something Like to essentially compensate for all The stuff that we do skills we didn’t Develop letting the other one taking Care of it and we take a while before we Actually like competitive again you know Yeah I think as well just that learning All those skills together and growing it Going through that kind of skill up
Learn up grow up experience it’s kind of Like it’s so unique the set of skills We’ve developed and the skills we can Individually specialize in that it’s Very difficult to find someone else We’re like who knows all of those little Bits and pieces I wouldn’t even know Where how to start with that okay so Let’s close these podcasts there’s one Thing okay one thing one thing before we Close so we talked a little bit earlier About sharing everything 5050 and like Having split equity and really kind of Making sure your long-term there’s no Misalignment of incentives and all that Kind of stuff there’s one that is Absolutely true But I’ve put another point in here which Is except that not every part is 50/50 So there’s this dynamic you kind of have To be generally okay with the 50/50 but Then realize that it’s not 50/50 for Everything every second every day in Every situation and you just have to Kind of like trust that the other Person’s pushing towards the same goal Overall long-term as you are and things Just work out more or less equally and Along I think it was maybe two months into our Visit three months in this was when There was three of us of another Business partner as well and you I think You dropped your last offer the cool
Yeah like ran into cord and pulled off The table and broke the laptop and I was Like oh that’s another $1,500 $1,500 Gale has been a laptop it’s not Exactly what happened it’s like I had a Shitty PC at the time and we went and I We were writing I was writing a report That we would pay $2,000 for by a client And and I was supposed to like send it Back you know 48 hours later or Something like I had to work on it Basically and beyond it was like Sunday Night or something the only thing often Was like the Apple Store and his Psychiatrist went and bomb but not only Expensive Micra but like a base set in Inch bag like the cheapest mangu probe So when I buy a bag Pro to replace a Pretty shitty PC to be honest and so I Think that creates some tensions with The other business about that yeah so When that came through my reaction was Like okay and his reaction was not so Fair like we should get one too or I’m Just gonna what if I just drop my laptop And get a new laptop and stuff and I Understand why someone would would think That especially because Gail was like Super clumsy and like you know broke a Lot of dropped a lot of stuff That’s that’s that’s kind of who you’re Not quite as bad and I don’t break Anything that there were surgeries look At all the equipment I have I hope
Nothing’s broken you know look at that Flamingo is gonna be here for this you Know you’ve got you’ve got a lot better So this kind of dynamic were one person Benefits financially or in items or time Or whatever it happens all the time I’m not saying as Gail break stuff all The time but there’ll be something else That That comes along that oh you know I need This or I need to go meet this client Here talk to this person here and spend This time doing this or whatever and you Just kind of got to be okay with a Little bit of imbalance there and and Not kind of count every cent penny Pinched everything if that makes sense Yeah which is hard to do when you’re Starting up and you know you are living Off of not so much money and you’re all Kind of like trying to make it make it Go at it but certainly as as he goes Back to the distance I was talking about We need to be close enough so that this Is okay but like also like not too close That like people start spending money Without giving you or something Guys it’s fine you know what it’s mark He doesn’t give a that you spend All that money you know what I mean like It’s like so again it’s kind of like That meat distance that like most Relationships are not in you know yeah So yeah I agree with that
Um let’s close this with each giving our Best advice to someone that wants to Start a partnership like they’re working Alone either they have a site I think a Lot of people was like smaller sites are Looking for partners as well like people Who like they’re able to run a stage one Site but they’re not really able to like Take it to the next level they struggle Building a team they tackle this thing And they’re like well if I partnered With someone and I focus on the SEO Something then that could go pretty well Um so what would be your best advice to Someone that’s listening that’s looking To get into a partnership should they do It should they not do it what should we Be looking for yeah so make sure that Your incentives are very closely aligned So that you’re both going to be putting In your absolute all to the business Make sure if possible that you’re both All in on it So cut any side projects any other jobs Any distraction just really both go all Into that if it’s all possible that sets You up for success massively I also Think that it’s really important that You like the other person and you can Kind of hang out with them they don’t Irritate you they don’t annoy you In a social situation their world 100% Be things that they do and work which Which annoys you the way the way they’re
Working but it’s like why I said earlier About being accepting of your Differences and understanding that you Can always learn from learn from that And there’s usually some big benefits to Having different perspectives different Experiences in different ways of working In that the final thing I would say I Don’t have direct expend I do have a Little bit experience to this but if it Ever goes to then the best solution Is an amicable solution if you guys have Some massive business bust up and break Up it it’s almost always a lose-lose Situation I have a few my friends over The last 10 years have come to me in These situations and asked for the Advice and that is the one thing I would Always say like try and try and be as Amicable to the other person as possible It’s kind of like a divorce you know you Can you can either be friendly and kind Of sorted out fairly or you can spend a Shitload of money on lawyers and AW both Lose out overall yeah that is I’m glad To ask you one thing I can I can answer That again if you yeah I think I think People don’t pay attention enough to Personality I think it’s quite important And again I mentioned earlier but it’s Self management if you are working with Someone you don’t like you won’t work as Hard as a result you will not do as well The business would not do as well they
Would not be as motivated and I started Doing good shape so personality is quite Important I would say also like just Spend time with people before you agree To go on a business partnership maybe do Some kind of like vocation together I Think something like that like going to A save location for like 10 days and Having a mix of activities so that you Can close that distance but at the same Time like you know like go I don’t know Windsurfing or something and then you Can also have some kind of like business Meeting in the afternoon or something And maybe talk Things that you could do around the Business so like show each other what You’ve done in other K in on your work Etc just to get to know each other on The professional level as well and Essentially build that relationship Where both of these things live together I think it’s probably a good idea as far Evolves your time and it might be fun Actually you might like even if these People that you don’t end up working With it will still build like really Strong relationships with people that Are in your industry and you might Benefit from that even if you don’t end Up doing a business partnership except It’s not necessarily gonna work every Time don’t say yes if there’s an Opportunity right as well say no to 90
Of them and yes to one of them or Something’s being being face-to-face Very important I think in the in the Early stages to close that distance and To get yourself to that point where you Can speak unfiltered to someone I think It’s definitely a risk if you have Physical distance you know you’re in Different time zones you’re only Chatting on slack or whatever so yeah Try try and maximize the kind of In-person communication even if that Means you have to yeah how can I meet Like four to six times the regular so Even if even if he leaves in Scotland Actually so yeah it’s yeah and we we put It as a so we do our like SWOT analysis Once a quarter or quarterly meetings and It’s it hasn’t come up recently but last Year it was kind of like oh it’s a risk We’re living in different countries this Could affect communication and all this Kind of stuff so how do you mitigate That risk oh well we have this quarterly Meeting face to face in person somewhere In Budapest in UK or summer and again We’ve played a ton of online games Of young which means we were Collaborating with fellow remotely Through the internet so actually we’ve Been brought up that way as well so that Kind of helps okay I’m gonna close it up Here Because I have a Deano right now
Actually So if you enjoyed this episode and if You’re on YouTube give us a thumbs up Subscribe there’s a subscription button Below and you can drop a comment as well Helps us with the rankings on YouTube Basically and we’ll answer if you guys Answer put a comment in there we’ll We’ll knock we’ll answer it as long as It’s not hate because we have a few that Are pending so you can go through them And we also obviously on the audio Podcast platform so it’s on Spotify Google podcast Apple podcast and SoundCloud you can find us there and any Other aggregator really or any of Podcast app you can find a cell to Search for sorry akka and you will find Us there Thank you for listening we will come Back next week with another episode see You later Have a good week right