Hey authority hackers welcome to this Week’s episode of the Atari hacker Podcast mark is still no honeymoon Somewhere in Valley sipping cocktails With no clue about how much of the havoc I’m causing into the company right now But him leaving is not an excuse to stop The podcast and today you’re in luck Because we broke our roof one of the Most popular gifts of 2019 to talk with Me about site structure if you don’t Know him Cal is a bit of an on-page SEO Genius is actually the only person that Was average indexed by Google for on Page optimization and he’s also the mind Behind page optimize approach is an On-page tool that a lot of people use And get good results with and he’s also A founder of IMG which stands for Internet marketing gold which is a Community where he shares his single Variable test results which made him Quite popular in the industry among Other things there’s all these things Going on it’s a full community there so It’s going to be interesting because Size structure is a topic that confuses The [ __ ] out of most people when you Read Facebook groups when you look at The questions etc I feel like the same Questions pop up all the time So in today’s episode I try to run up The most popular questions that people Ask about size structure and calendar I
Have the challenging test to try and Make them clearer for you so let’s get Started [Music] Hey guys welcome to the Atari hacker Podcast today we don’t have knock as I Said in the intro but we have Cal Welcome back Cal it feels like you’re Like a regular now well it does two Times make me regular yeah I guess like Most people never did Street interviews Here so I guess it’s like two times the Most anyone else other than mark and I Has ever be on the it was like to hit Like three or four in that way I can set A record that might not be broken yeah Yeah I think it’s gonna be hard to beat That one well I’m sorry I’m sure you Come back just just send muck on the Holiday a bit more often and I’m showing You again you know it’s kind of like I I Usually pick the more nerdy like SEO Topics and he picks more like the Business side of things because that Secretary how it works in the company so We try to assign the topics to that work We’re best at which which is why that Happens and you know there’s one thing That’s weird is every time we do a Podcast day before there’s a choral day With Google so is there some kind of Conspiracy here like did you know Anything about no actually what’s Interesting though is that shameless
Plug for IMG we predicted it on Saturday Yeah yeah Tech gobitis has developed a Early warning system tool and it looked Like a big update was rolling on Saturday and then Google confirmed on Monday there’s a core update that was Actually really cool to see yeah it’d be Nice to like see if you guys can repeat The prediction but that’s really Impressive on its own because it’s They’re like really unpredictable it’s Not like they have a calendar or Anything like that it’s like you know I Ask people like what do you want me to Get to a scale and then everyone was Like I’ll tell us of the D update except I’m like guys it’s been six hours it’s Like you must know what’s going on right Now you know exactly what I’m like so It’s like anything to say although as I Can just keep the nitrogen one size I Have one small thing to say that Actually yeah okay is gonna share I in The group is that four of our four or Five of our larger clients are in Financial or law or some kind of blend Of that and what’s really interesting is You can see it drop in impressions in Search console about one to two days Before and All of at the same time on the 11th ping Back up it’s an interesting little Trendline where maybe as the as they’re Preparing for the update URLs start to
Fall out of the surface or keyword start To fall out a little bit they’re Reprocessing a lot and I could see some Movement so the past two or three days As well like definitely the changes so Play ups as well so this change does Play us on desktop so it’s like that Could play a bit as well actually like Did you put the icon like the mobile but Like they might have changed out the Same statement mentioned so yeah since There’s like a gazillion sir players These days anyway this is not the top of The podcast even though that’s what Everyone wants to know my plan is to Actually use this podcast on outside Structure blog post like this do that And I would talk about site structure And I you know when I was preparing this Podcast I was trying to think like who’s Going to be interested in forecast and I Can I’ve had like two plus one kinds of People so the first time people had was People were starting new sites like they Want to know how to structure it the Best way it’s usually the best time to Start thinking about it I think but I Asked you about that a little bit later Then the second type of people is people Who have sites and their site is like Messy as [ __ ] like you know you’ve built Your site you have hundreds of pages and It’s a freaking mess and then you’re Struggling with Google and you’re like
Well maybe I should work on my side Stretch and there’s some type of people There’s people who already do everything Right but they’re kind of like the kind Of OCD people that need everything to be Absolutely perfect all the time so they Probably sing to that podcast so we’ll Probably give them a few questions for These people as well so that is the cat This freaking of people that I think That will be listening this podcast so I’ve kind of like broken down the Questions third type of people um but Before we get started you know we all Use like different ways of like mapping Out a site how do you map out your sites Like how do you like draw the site Structure you want to build or change or Anything like that like what tools you Use flat well I think of really more It’s a spreadsheet more than anything I Don’t have a fancy that I use but I like To compartmentalize my sites by target Pages and then the siloed I’m going to Used to support them and so for me I Don’t care too much about the Overarching site structure with some Caveats you know especially like if You’re doing local and services and There’s Things I think you should do but really I don’t care too much about the Overarching structure because I’m really Focusing on on sections of the site and
If I get those right then I know that I’m okay mm-hmm so I personally use I Actually use Dino lists most of the time I don’t know if you know that too is Just a bullet point thing that you can Do an unlimited blue points for notes I Help me like actually plan site Structure for new sites so that’s Personally what I use my problem with Spreadsheets is that essentially like When I want to go deeper it’s kind of I Mean I guess you do the vertical silos Like that but I you know where you want To do sub sub sub sub box or something And you want to go deep it’s a little Bit uh to be annoying I’m with you yeah I don’t know there’s great I would Prefer a visual tool but then I’ve Played with some of those and they get Real messy in a hurry once you have a Page yeah it’s it’s quite tricky to map Site like internal linking etc overall And that’s what I wanted to ask you Because it’s like oh here it is you know A lot of people assume that like we have Like some kind of magical solution for Some stuff and it’s like no we just Struggled like everyone else and how Like the question I want to ask before We start on these three kind of people That I mentioned is how important to Using site structure is for sites Rankings like I’m trying to put on a Ladder right like we have like external
Links and then we have page title and Then we have all like what does it fit In a letter like how important is that You know well the URL itself is very Important for a ranking factor I put the URL in the top four places to put a Target keyword now with the meta title H1 in the body and paragraph text and Then in the URL those are probably the Four and they’ve remained for quite some Time the four most important places so In the URL is an important thing how You’ve actually physically structured Your site I don’t know that that’s Necessarily the ranking factor until you Get to a point where you’re harming Yourself where you have folders that are 404s You know or you’ve got you’ve decided That this page that you want to rank in Add to the variant Paige for you and it’s like six folders Deep into your site yeah you did like a Year or month day you know category Subcategory subcategory target page like I don’t know that Google’s ever gonna Find that page and if it does its how Much budget is left for who leavin how Much gonna crawl so I think more Anything with a site structure you can Harm yourself more than helping yourself I think it’s how it usually goes I don’t Think it ultimately matters until you Get to the point of harm I see so but
Like so basically what you’re saying is Like there’s kind of like these Difference between hard silos which is Like this you’re like built in the URL Your site structure is built in a URL And you have these soft silos which are Essentially built you only with internal Linking and and what you’re saying Essentially it doesn’t really matter What you have the problem is with hot Silos let’s say you how you built a Small site of 20 pages and you build Hard silos and you want to go like 3 Levels deeper as you build a hub then it Becomes quite complicated and it like Actually helps you because these pages Are so deep or as if you had a subsoil That would not happen that’s exactly Right I think there’s a certain point where You usually decide we’re not gonna go Any deeper than this and then you know Your structure should then you should Make accommodations for it after that Try not to go farther I would I really Hate having a page that I’m trying to Rank that’s really more than three deep You know Hakan slash whatever slash the Page I’m trying to rank I really if it’s Something that’s important to me I try Not to go any deeper than that So do you ever build sub folders on your Sites anymore like is it something you Become an at all at this point
No they exist because we have a lot of Sites that are WordPress so that’s kind Of my default usually I sell no no you Can do the URL structure like the Permalink you can’t just like stop your Host name and then it’s like you don’t Have any like personally when I build Size these days like there’s no Subfolders except for things like Landing page for example so I’ll have Like /lp slash whatever and I’ll just Know index if I do PPC or whatever then All these stuff doesn’t get I’m with ya That’s how I agree to do it one of the Things that people don’t often order Something they don’t realize is that a Lot of CMS is tie the URL structure to How the nav menu is going to look and That’s a fiction you can have You don’t have to have categories and Then also an admin you can create that For the users experience and for humans To navigate a site it does make a lot of Sense for them to have a structure where They see a category and then they see It’s sub pages but just because it lives That way in the navigation doesn’t mean That’s how the URL structure actually Has to be yeah I agree It’s like basically you can do whatever You want and I mean one thing that has Really changed the game for from years Well in terms of how I built my sites is Actually elemental Pro I don’t know if
You’ve played with that much but they Allow you to take over your WordPress Category pages like as a normal page so You can actually you not to break WordPress you not to do like don’t you Redirects of your category pages Whatever because you have it in your Slugs you can literally take put that One category page and build a proper hub Page and then it’s it’s changed the way We build sites a lot it’s removed a lot Of a glitzy or like shitty stuff that Was we were using behind the scenes like These redirects like this all of these Signals are that allowed us to build Like a cleaner site structure that was Bypassing the default WordPress which is Really not that nice I mean a category Page on WordPress by default has like Ten posts and has the pagination and all That kind of [ __ ] to be honest yeah no I Like that a lot It’s an internal linking [ __ ] That’s why I called it to the stuff I Think I think there should be a Technical term I think we should ID to Like us unless your wiki or something One thing I wanted to know as well is Like for people who are starting sites Should they worry about internet like Not interlinking site structure right From the beginning or is it something That you can take care of later in your Opinion I think if you have the
Opportunity to get it clean to start With that’s what you should do usually What happens is people start and they Have a site that really doesn’t matter There’s only 20 pages on the site and Then once they get 200 pages they’re Like oh my got it but if you could make Some decisions earlier on on how you’re Going to approach it but probably the Biggest issues that people you know Writing a or building a website is like Writing a book You know and sometimes you just don’t Know what direction that book is gonna Go until you start doing it and so if You actually might have to build out Some of the site and then realize this Is a mistake and if you can kind of Maybe then course-correct On how that site is going but the other Thing that’s kind of our the problem is Just it’s one thing to be able to plan It it’s another to really know what the Site’s gonna end up being and yeah in Most cases I don’t think people do the Thing is like you know you start a site And some parts of it are gonna be Successful and some are not right so Like I started site and that says top Five hubs and it’s like one that’s Usually gonna take off and do really Well and the four others are just gonna Like kind of like either be average or Kind of shades and then well reason and
Like then you gain relevancy for this Sub silo in the eyes of Google basically It was like let’s say you’re talking About I don’t know like green socks blue Socks ed whatever and a green socks Takes off and then it’s like you know You become an authority for green inside Green socks so it makes sense to write More about green socks because every Time you write about it you just end up Ranking really fast you don’t have to do A lot of work there’s a lot of in Communiques your pages about green socks And and we had that for like for health Ambition like at some point like we were Ranking for anything apple cider vinegar We would write about because we brought About the skincare routine of Scalia Johansson that was using that and got so Many links and then like we would write Anything about apple cider vinegar would Just rank it was like it was just kind Of funny it was really good and so and That’s the problem with hard silos in my Opinion is that if you go in a direction Of of these kind of like lengthy URLs Essential and then you realize that that One sub silo well you know what it makes More sense business ways to build a Hundred pages on that one subtitle and Kind of ignore the rest of the site for A while then that’s when you end up with These four or five fold those deeps kind Of kind of things because it was like
One block who studied well and you’re Like well I need to create pages and Support content and becomes a massive Mess in my opinion so I guess it’s a That’s why it’s a structure is good but It’s also why clients extra check is Good but it’s also why it’s good not to Physical silos in my opinion yeah I like To avoid them I mean I Know that it’s a necessary component is The kind of like oh my god I’ve got Physical silos I need to change my Absolutely yeah you’re like basically Flipping your coin every time you turn To URL right oh that’s exactly right you Don’t know if Google’s gonna love it as Much as it used to That’s often you know that’s often what Comes up when you’re when you you’re at That point oK we’ve gone this far now do We need to change everything or should We keep it as is and deal with it and The decision I think you have to make is Is what you stand to lose yeah if you Have pages that are on page one and They’re ranking well and they’re Bringing you ROI there’s really no point In changing that URL you know like you I Think you stand in were to lose them to Gain but if you’re not ranking Whatsoever or you’re stuck on page seven You’re losing nothing so that would be a Good opportunity than to to switch Things up but otherwise you know those
Windows Suzy you built out the side a Bit and you decided well we probably Need to change that then you have to Decide what will you lose Jean would you Change spot on the site but not the rest Of the site let’s say like a part of Size doing well so you’re like I don’t Want to change it and you thought about It’s not doing well and you’re like Should I change that should I stop Introducing discrepancy within my site In terms of URL structure I would do That I would I would actually try Sometimes you have like it’s a real coin Flip on if we should or should not Change can you change a few of them can You change he just changed a few pages On the site and see how they perform a Lot of people think of things as light Or dark we’re gonna do all or nothing And it’s like well you don’t have to do That with a website you can you know it Might take a little bit did work it Might not be WordPress out of the box But you can probably set up where you Could have different structures for Different things and then me and you Small changes small adjustments and see If it horribly impacts your pages and Then like well now I know yeah I’ve Never tried it but one of my Considerations was actually to duplicate Your site change the stuff and we Recommend you call your original site to
The duplicate site see what happens and Then just remove the I haven’t tried so I’m not going to recommend people do That It’s a little bit risky but it’s a bit Softer than this fear one with direct I Think it’s not that way to do it Actually now I think about it work very Well that’s one things like yeah that’s All I say that don’t recommend it like It’s like it’s just like something that On paper doesn’t make sense but it is a Big gamble if you have a site that makes Money so be careful with this well one Thing I want to say as well it’s like a Lot of newbies we listen to his podcast And like oh I need to work on my site Structure and the problem my problem is That it’s kind of like the same problem I have with PageSpeed is that people Like literally haven’t figured out how To generate content or how to get links To their site and start working on site Structure I’m like guys what the [ __ ] You know what are things that you think People should sort out before they worry About site structure well you have to Have your target pages Matt you know Like these this is the page that I want To show up in Google like that has to be A concept that you’ve come to terms with And saying you know okay now this is Gonna be my primary keyword for this Phrase and whether it’s an easy one or a
Difficult one I don’t think that matters Too much because if you properly Optimize for a particular phrase you Will win you start to win secondary Terms work even if you never win that Primary you also win a lot of secondary So choose those target primary keywords And their home and I think once you do That it’ll give you a good idea of your Structure you know because okay these Are the pages that we actually want to Rank so these are the ones we need to Focus on you can probably build out from There the next thing I’m going to do is Then my supporting content for those Target pages and I’m gonna determine What that is and this is kind of how the The site continues to build is by based On a target page that primary keyword And then it’s supporting content kind of That’s specifically chosen to support That target page and then you can build Out and I think from there but I think To your point at some point you have to Get content up you know a beautifully Structured site with nothing on it isn’t Going to do anything so you’ve had that Before right people come to you and They’re like oh To work on my site speed etc and you go On the site is like three pages now and You’re like no well yeah I’ve done Everything and nothing I think this is Isn’t my problem with online marketing
Content it’s like you know like people Need to like you know some shiny object That people so that they keep engaging With people’s content it’s like these Are things that you take care of after You you figured out your basics Basically and I think it’s important to Repeat to people because I see that Mistake a lot so you kind of like Explain essentially you reverse silo Concept actually was watching SEO Fight Club before that podcast this morning so That I can catch up on all your theories On site structure and everything and Yeah you can explain that quite a bit I’ll link the video I can’t remember Which yeah so thank you I know that just Because like you explained you explained Essentially this reversal that you Briefly explain right now which is Essentially that you know most people Kind of like build dislike appearing but You focus first on the page that you Want to rank and then based on that you Brainstorm support content can you Define what support content is and what Is not support content support content These are terms around your your topic Questions that people would ask that They have so if you’re selling a Particular product this would be Questions like you know does this come In black blue or green you know or you Know can I use this in the winter or you
Know do you guys I mean they can be very Mundane questions like that the things That people would ask about a certain Thing the example that I give in Workshops is like if I’m trying to sell Ski packages in New Zealand a great Question is like which are the best ones For families what do you think when you Write about these are like how do you Essentially pick the questions I find Them from people also ask and if you put A people also ask into keyword planner It’s gonna come back with zero as search Language I find really amazing because Somebody has actually are There’s no way for it to count you know Great like somebody I’m gonna guess more Than one person has asked this and That’s how pinged to be relevant enough So I’m answering those questions people Have those questions if they show up There or you can usually tap into like a Niche forum for your for your whatever You’re selling or your product or your Service or whatever if somebody’s taking The time to write in a forum that Question that means they’ve searched it And that’s how they searched it so if You can answer that question and you can Find the ones that are most engaging With people like I have that same Question – or I did – and then I found This that means people are searching for Those things I love those for supporting
Content because you’ll probably win it With the longtail phrase that’s just Getting it in you know your meta title And your h1 and then just answer the Question and then at that point you’re Probably gonna start getting traffic Into your silo which is probably one of The best things you can do because Silas Is being engaged that it’s getting Traffic and then people are linking to It organically now you with your Internal linking structure you set up Through your silo you’re getting juice Flowing up to where you need to go and One of the overriding principles is if You’re selling something on that target Page nobody’s got a link to it yeah not Organically unless your product has that Great good reviews in like you know like Eventually if you get instruction I Guess this saved my life but other than That like those things aren’t getting But if you answered a great question About it people do link to that aspect What do you get like a lot of things to Use kind of like tiny questions yeah Well they’re easier to get people to Link to so whatever talked about reach You do if you say like hey I noticed That this is important to your people I Answered these questions over here um And then however you’re negotiating your Links from there but you can often get Those types of Link’s going to those
Things they make they make for much Better organic link possibilities and it Makes people a lot more amenable to Getting into a situation where they Might link to your site because you’re Not asking them to link to a page where You selling something you know something That actually may be beneficial to their Audience Fair enough I mean the things like we’ve Done kind of similar stuff was like Shotgun skyscraper this is that you the You you’re aiming for like essentially Low volume low competition queries that Answer questions Or as kind of like the method to find Shotgun skyscraper topics for us is to Actually use cue or difficulty in a Dress because it’s only based on on External links to pages that rank on top So in like is the only thing they look At like they didn’t really think a lot About the gear difficulty but it’s quite Nice to find these topics because then Gives us a lot of link opportunities but I’m quite curious of like how many Opportunities you find for these tiny Keywords I couldn’t give you numbers but Yeah before we have a full time link Builder and I don’t really but I mean That’s that’s what that’s what we do and That’s the whole strategy is that often What we’ll do so we’ve got our target Page and let’s say we’ve got we’re gonna
Focus on getting three initial Supporting things out to them one is Going to be something that we think we Can get links to whatever that might be That could be a shotgun skyscraper type Thing it could be an infographic it Could be a video embed it doesn’t matter Whatever gonna be used to actually for Our link outreach the other two things Were probably going to view those longer Tail questions with the idea that they Probably rank within a few days and then Then we’ve got something that’s Supporting our silo that’s on page one Page two in a matter of moments because It’s a longtail phrase that’s being Answered so then when people search for We actually might start getting traffic Into that it’s kind of like that passive Link building side of things which is Quite powerful like we’ve had a lot of Info keywords ranking like it’s not a Lot of links but like you know a small Post like that can collect like three to Five links a year but they’re they’re Really like not a lot of work to do like You can have hundreds of these on your Site and if you have a site that has a Lot of these adds a mattering quite a Lot actually it’s sort of like in Balance and you do not have to spend Resources on getting links once these Are ranking it just happened basically So yeah I can see that definitely oh
Yeah so I’m sorry I’m doing a little Case study on um from Doug shows live The golden key were golden ratio kg our IQ out golden oh yeah yeah yeah so I Don’t know I found seven that match it And then I launched them with lorem Ipsum I did this three days ago I’ve got Three that are already ranking in the Top 100 Wow okay what’s that are you Getting tracked not yet they’re like on Page five page six I’m one there but I’m Gonna I’m watching it as like a just a Little fun little case study just I Think it’s interesting a lot of people Talk about it it’s like I’m much more Like the hard data side of things so That’s why kgl feels a little bit light For my taste of picking kills like I Like to look at kicks rights and things Like that and it’s like but I’ve seen People get results with it so it’s like You know see what happens well that’s Right I just want to see what happens See how it goes is it could be when you Think about the things you’re gonna Throw into your silo what if you did two People also ask one keyword golden ratio And then one thing that’s meant for Links and I think you’ve got an SEO Campaign mm-hmm that was actually mine How do you how do you decide like how Many of these do you do and like maybe Like looking at the main cure you’re Trying to rank etc I’m sure you kind of
Like judging the Comets resources you’re Gonna have to put into this like how do You decide about that it’s really more From a practical sense on what you can Manage in a month and so three is Usually what we do just it’s an easy Number to manage because you’ve got a Lot of moving parts these things you Have to manage content writers have to Manage if you’re producing something That’s gonna be used for links you have To then work on the outreach and afton So usually three is a number that we can Handle we’ll do a set of three if we Have a little more if we have more Resources or more bunch of mighty about To five but then they also thing about Client approval because we’re all client Side on things so you know there’s a lot Of moving part and snow three to five is Probably what you can reasonably manage And then we’ll do them in those sets So we’ll launch it we’ll see how that Goes we’ll see if they rank if they’re Getting traffic if it’s the effect we Have and do another set of three and Just kind of going I tend to like come So far sites attempt to do bigger silos Now I tend to do like 20 pages or so I Would say 20 is like usually what I do Is I throw a silo of 20 articles um Maybe you have like five skyscrapers or Something something that’s like really Meant to bring ingress into the
And it’s kind of like being thought out So that the other pieces are like Contextually linked from these pieces And I destroy and others like wait six Months and then see what happens after The outreach is done and go back to this Be like am I making money and if I am Then usually I expand that silo from a 20 to like a hundred pages or something Like at all though a 4×8 or something You can do if you have the existing site That has pages already you can find the Ones in H register and a tool do you Like that have accidentally gotten links You know there accidentally have traffic And then use those to jumpstart your Silo cuz then you can put things like There are we’re doing an Atari hacker Right now actually like literally like Last round of content updates I went From pages by links and then I just we Did brainstorming topics from these Pages and then you just like you have These contextual links you can put exact Anchor text on your page often you do ok On medium keywords from these your niche Editing your own site internally we call These we call them repurpose pages but If they have links coming in with all The empower pages and one of the first Things I want to do is find power pages That are not being utilized correctly And I don’t worry about the other links That are going on in it I don’t sweat
That too much but what I try to do is The first link that’s gonna be on the Page and what going to that target page So what I’m repurposing things I try not To I don’t want to mess up too much of Whatever is going on in there I don’t Wanna make sure that first link is going To my target page and I want to make Sure meeting links going to my other Silo pages so I do you think the altar Of links on the page metas like if that You think is likely on the page it Matters I do and and so for that reason I want to make sure that my first link On the page or something that I’m Specifically doing for a silo You can have a lot of different pages on Your site for a lot of different Purposes but something that I’m Consciously dedicating to one target Page I want to make sure that my first Link is going to that target page okay And how many how many internal links Will you put on a page before you say It’s too much like let’s say like I’ll Take an example no taco right so we have That page it’s I don’t know how he’s Doing with these updates I don’t want to Say weights ranking right oh my god I do this on a line somewhere someone We’ve been for a long time someone page One for like three programs for example And I can jumpstart a lot of pages from That page how many is too much I don’t
Know that’s a number so yeah you’re You’re talking about though there’s many These are slightly different things You’re talking about a page that you’re Using what would you call it a hub page How do you define that yeah it’s like I Mean it’s something that hasn’t been a Home page has slowly become one sure Then I then you know what I don’t worry About what how many links that has it Cuz a hub page is a hub page it’s just There – it’s a blog post right it’s the Blog post where it’s like it’s just Starting to link out to more and more Things as we come back right just Whatever’s reasonable and practical That’s how it treat that something that I’m really consciously saying I’m Creating this piece of content it’s Gonna answer this question and it’s Gonna support that target page I really Want to limit that I want one link to my Target page I want one to two links into The silo depending on where it’s sitting And I really want to limit from there Because if people don’t know like the Original formula of PageRank is Essentially like water and vases right The more the more holes there is to Other pages the more device between the Page is a drink and for a long time People were doing what’s called PageRank Sculpting which is essentially no Following internal link so that you
Would follow the PageRank to the pages You want but now Google actually makes PageRank these appears from no follow Links so I haven’t tried but it does Seem like patron scouting doesn’t really Work anymore nah I don’t think in terms Of you trying to know for all the things Internally yeah but if your internal Links of you say it works I guess yeah If you don’t you can you just internal Links baby yeah yeah so I mean you can Self sculpt in a way that I mean I think A sculpting is something that that’s a Naughty term that’s where you’re you Know are you trying to follow or Strategically nofollow within your site With the idea of blocking juice but Making them a decision I’m only gonna Link to two things that’s we can Consider every G company does that like Every Fortune 500 companies that does Here like Has actually thinking about their Internal linking for sure what do you Think about navigation links like using The account as much to using the account At all what’s your stance on that I Would imagine the account for something But I’ve stopped stressing about them Just let them happen Let them be so that people can get Through your sites as I focus on the Virtual silo rather than a physical silo I’m really just worried about the links
That I have in my body content and then Just however the sites gonna happen just I think just let it happen No I say that and then something’s gonna Show me some sidebar that’s got you know Eight thousand links in it for some Reason I said you could do whatever you Said I could do it over and that’s Absurd like don’t be absurd but um just The site should happen organically in a Sense of like this this makes sense You know we’re we’ve got these Navigation things for these reasons so That people can find this content I’m Worried about that for humans after that Does the stuff that I’m worried about For Google and for ranked purposes are The only stuffing in the body so I don’t Stress my navbar my sidebar my footer Yeah I was gonna ask something like Related post for example it’s not really In your footer it’s not really in the Navigation whether that’s things in the Body I think it counts for the body That’s where like silo post can you can Make him look like related posts it just Is just you’ve personally curated it you Can see the toy Oaxaca if you pick a Category you will actually see only Posts from that category and you see a Post up for trying to that’s exactly how You should do it that’s why I’m like Using a plug-in unless you can really Customize it can be problematic because
It’s what they’ll do is I’ll start Sending links out to other categories And I really want to keep all my focus And on on that one silo that one Category you like to think of it that Way And then it’ll often those links will Start to start linking all across the Sign I don’t want that eventually it Becomes like you don’t control you it Like you might as well not do your Internal linking because like you get Like a leak of like exactly I guess yeah Like we do that as well so same like we Use element into a post template so you Can actually like you can literally this Redesign your sites like with a mentor Like you build a whole Template and just takes over your theme Folder it just takes your body content From what price and just throws it in Your common area and and yeah I took Something that looks like related posts And then we just manually curated Category usually and that works pretty Well actually yeah okay so I had a Question so now we’re going to jump into Like people studying new sites etc well There’s kind of like two ways of Starting a new site right there’s one Way which is trying to find as many like Low competition keywords as you can and Essentially like be like well it’s gonna Be easier to rank with the lower
Authority site and kind of make sense And then this year the other school Which is essentially building relevant Silos and sometimes wouldn’t be a Relevance I lose it also means that you Will like you kind of need that parent Topic that is a keyword that you have Very little chances of ranking for us a Lot or I decide but you might still Decide to do that for the sake of Building that coherent structure of your Site what’s your take on each and if you Have to start an affiliate site today Which one will you think oh I don’t Think I didn’t see that one in the the Pre people starting new site first set Points if you check that this might Sound like a lame answer but on the First one I’m doing both I’m building That page that I might not win you know I’m building that page out because I Know I’m gonna win secondary keywords Just and if you if you’re not sure what I’m talking about look in search console Do it by page view and then look at a Page and you’ll see that’s ranking for Hundreds of keywords many of which don’t Exist on the page that’s because Google Is identifying this is what this page is About these are the keywords that could I’m ranked for so when you choose your Primary keyword your target keyword you Can win all the secondary so even if you Don’t perform well on that one you can
Get a page that it’s very successful it Has a lot of page one terms a lot of Great impressions and traffic and clicks And ROI because pages rank for a lot of Keywords so I do that and then though I Do like the idea of finding those longer Tail quick wins and that’s what turns Into my silo content so that I can do That and get those quick wins get that Initial ranking but then they all funnel Up to the page that I’m ultimately Trying To sell something wrong it’s kind of the Approach that I like to take on that Niche I want to get into though is that The next one no no no I’m not going like As I’m we’re just talking theory here Usually this way the way we we do this Actually is like we kind of find is like The cues that will bring us to break Even like usually we start a new site we Maybe hire like a full-time writer maybe Like a part-time link builder and like Our editor is going to spend like six Hours a week I didn’t comment let’s say Like that’s the amount of resources for Injuries let’s say we like $2,500 down Per month from all expenses including Tools and everything and so the number One goal we have for affiliate sites Actually break even so we’re like well If we can keep this running it doesn’t Cost us anything then we’re happy to Like play for the long running in maybe
That should change with how volatile Google has been lately but whatever That’s been the way we’ve been things And so I usually try to find these like Really easy a third keywords that I Think will make me my money back and Usually these days these are vs keywords Like that’ll be like comparing two Products etc like these are you can find Seven hundred two thousand search among Vs key was in many niches on high paying Products and and the thing is like I Would not just write about my vsq Landing tree to my home page I would Rather take these keywords that I know Will make me money and kind of reverse Engineer like the whole silo all the way Back to the main topic of my site and so That means that in the process I will Most likely build four or five I don’t Want to co-parent pages because that Like gives you the notion of hot silo But like you know pages that are above That wheels like link to these so that I Can create these 20 30 40 vs pages that I think will make me my money back and I’ll try when I do maybe cues to angle Them you know wait I can skyscraper done Basically so that’s usually the way I do That actually but it’s it does I like to Ask people because I think everyone does This slightly do Like the this thought at least in the End everyone ends up with the same sight
But like you know making an informed Decision on things getting to that Break-even point you know what’s a Click-through rate gonna be for a whole Site it’s gonna be one and a half to two And a half percent probably yeah Somewhere around there maybe one percent Maybe three percent yes paid jeez like It can be like you know you can get 20 Percent clicks throw it on the net so Alpha 4 for these kind of kyushu for That one page I mean like in total Across everything on those pages that Work the pages that don’t you know you Could probably assume a 2 percent Click-through rate for for rough numbers And then you can get some volume ideas You know so we’ve got this primary these Are the secondaries that we could win These are some longer tail ones that we Get when combined all that search volume Do 2% that’s how many clicks you’re Gonna get what’s a good conversion rate Or what’s a normal conversion rate for An affiliate site it depends on the Niche like you know some tissues are Gonna be like 40% some nieces are gonna Be 5% you know sure so go on the lower End and call it a 10 percent conversion Rate your cost and then you can see how Much traffic you need to get yep you Know in order to that’s how we do that That’s exactly what we do when we pick An issue and we actually call all the
Affiliate managers and stuff and like Collects stats from them and do all that Now usually what we get into that’s the Amount of work that gets into it’s like That’s why people like oh you know Starting a new site every two weeks and They’re like it’s actually quite a bit Of work to do yeah it’s exactly how you Do that and so like you do that based on The size structure you’ve 20 so that’s Kind of an egg gives us an idea of like Where we’ll be and usually we kind of do What I mentioned for the side is we Throw something for six months and then Well if you have full-time staff would Keep them writing but we’d kind of like Start new silos to like see them and see Which ones are taking off in which ones Are not enough and just bring them back To the ones that have worked when once We have like proven the market but it’s Yeah I think I think for example I think My diggity does something completely Different which is why I wanted to ask You actually Um when you start a new site will you Still go with your like four pages which Is essentially your money page and Three three supporting articles yeah I Think of it in those terms like that Time I can roll it out you probably if You’re starting a brand new site you Probably want to get as many of those Target pages up as you can mm-hmm to
Begin with so you might focus a little Bit more on that and then come back Through on the supporting content and Like the following month perhaps because You know you at some point you have to You have to get those those pages on They can make you money so getting if You’re just starting out maybe I instead Of doing like one target and three Supporting on my to four targets and Then come back and hit my support yeah I’m certain like see where they land and Then kind of after a few weeks and then After that be like okay like this has a Chance if I add exactly then you can Spend money where you actually might Make money on hey this target page is Taking off let’s support and out so we Might get it to page one real quick and Then that’s gonna fund this whole site And I think that’s like something that If people listen to like I want them to Pick up on this properly is that we Essentially throw as little resources as Possible to something to see where we Land and to actually then get an idea of How well we can do if I start throwing a Title and every page is like number 50 On Google like 50 or less then I’m like I’m done like if I for example if I Started a hosting silo like hosting most Likely it would not do well and most Likely I would have been done it and I Would just like focus on something
That’s maybe making less money has it But I have higher chances of actually Getting rather than like you know going For the big play and essentially Spending like hundreds of thousands of Dollars and three years of my life to Get some hosting keywords and I think That’s something that because a lot of People are looking for hard rules I’m Sure when people ask you questions they Are looking for like how do i do these How do I do this etc like that Everything you tell me is like oh I do a Little bit of this and I see how it goes And then I just based on this I do that I think that’s what beginners need to Pick up on because I think that’s that’s The way most people that I’m advanced do Things um but it’s quite it’s something That you gain with experience this Ability to deal with uncertainty and I Think when you’re starting in this Industry is extremely frustrating Because it’s not an exact science Basically it’s like there’s an exact Algorithm that you We’ll never figure out and then you just Have to do your we have to figure the Successful people are probably 80% Successful or 70% successful and in that What they start off with and what They’re trying to actually ends up Working which is oh yeah there’s 20 to 30% that it’s not gonna do anything but
Like yeah but like people like take the Feedback of failures as well and Actually improve from that and I think That’s how people grow in this industry As well and I think I think it’s Something to that people have embraced Failure that have done this for a long Time I’m sure you had plenty of failures In this year and we have had many and Many people can’t stop doing yeah I Don’t mind anymore like it’s kind of Like it’s a you get to a point where you Go just like doesn’t mind anymore Because it’s happened so many times it It’s it’s funny um one thing I’d like to Ask you for new sites is category pages Because we mentioned earlier but you Didn’t really tell me how you do things So how do you do how do you handle Categories / let’s say hot pages on your Site so like like the category pages You’re talking about that generates from WordPress based on I’ve done these posts And I’ve categorized them and now I’ve Got that page I don’t worry about that Page too much if I’m feeling like it’s It’s causing problems and maybe tag Pages sometimes can cause problems with WordPress sites all no index them all no Index and follow and I think that that Will probably take care of any of those Things away if I really don’t want that Page just show littles me I don’t sweat It too much I have not run into any
Problems with category pages personally Like out ranking something that I want It’s rink I have seen tag pages do that And that’s common touring because they Really don’t convert I think they look Weird in the SERPs and I can’t believe That like WordPress is like sold and and These still looks like that and like I Go search it still complete crap and Categories so I don’t I don’t really Worry about those too much now a hub Page you know something that I’m Creating where I’ve got particular topic And then I’ve got links going into my Site that’s that’s kind of what Page concept is right or as you define It look pages like a page that’s like You know covering a topic and then Linking out to old pages of a there are Some nice ways you can do those so that People would actually link to it you Know where you you’ve got a whole it Said you think I’m like a might look Like a resources page where you can come Here and you can get this is the place Where you can come and get to all forms Of resources people do link to those Pages you can’t get actual links to Those and then so it’s instead of like You’ve got your silo or we’re building Links in its going to a target page you Got this hub page and it’s linking out To all the other so you are getting that Form of link juice flowing through that
Particular page because people do link To them so I like to think of those as a Separate thing outside of any kind of Silo structure they’re on their own and Their navigational if they get through My site but then they’re also Educational or some form of resource That people would actually link to is How I like to play with those yeah I Like to actually make them blog post These days like actually it’s funny like Literally this morning at least a blog Post on the target that’s exactly that It’s like least our affiliate niches It’s basically like we’ve done like a Bunch of research on bunch of niches and Then there’s a giant least and just like Essentially it’s a hot page that’s here To like navigate people and get links And things like that that’s all I use it For I don’t really worry about sitting In the silo structure I don’t really Care where it sits on the site but like Would you would you like do guest Posting campaign to a page like this Yeah yeah we yeah yeah yeah you know how Do I cancel my cable company you know so You get a listing top cable companies How you actually cancel and then you’ve Got links going to your different Services that are better than their Services yeah okay so and then you would Just guest post them and then you try to Put them for keyword usually like some
Kind of like so me rather in keyword no Actually I haven’t done it too much Where I’m actually trying to rank the Hub page for anything not intentionally I’m trying to usually what I’m trying to Do is Maybe something else would rank Something that I’m linking to but I am Just trying to get it as a place it’s Just a resource for people to put link Or for me to put links to things that Give good answers to questions and then The juice drives in that I can spread Throughout my site so the reason I try To rank them actually is because I mean That’s why I make them articles not Because like it’s easier to rank okay But the reason I try to rank them is for The same reason you’re trying to get Your support pages I’m trying to just Get passively building communities and You know it’s like sometimes it works Sometimes it doesn’t but it’s something That I want to give six more months Before I’m like highly recommend you Know something but that’s kind of Anything else that I didn’t ask you About safe structure for new sites no my Only last one would be he got a start I So many people should I start with this Niche of that niche should I do this or That just do one just just go do it Exactly what’s that you can fix a Structure later anyways yeah I would
Also mention if you’re just starting out I would not and I mean you’re gonna Build an affiliate site I wouldn’t do my My heart’s passion on my first one no Mind if I just burned it down completely And I would do something that I’m Interested in because obviously you’re Probably under your content right Heading to start at least make it Interesting enough that you don’t mind Writing about it But I might try something that I don’t Care so much about that I learned so Much on that over the course of a year So that when I start my second one I Feel I’m in a good position to do that You’ve gained all that knowledge and Then your second one which you really do Care about I think will be much more Successful and then you’ve got the Passion with the knowledge that you Gained I agree it’s like your first like That’s not gonna be you can do okay with It but you always have regrets and like Something that like people that haven’t Done this for like many years don’t Realize but like when your site’s aged It’s a lot of regrets are difficult to Fix on things that you’ve done on Branding on again like URL decisions and Things like that that you just can’t go Back to and it’s too much of a gamble to Go and change but the same time you can Do it over again you did completely
Differently so you might as well make These mistakes on the site you care a Little bit less about then it’s like I Like to give the example of the athletes Like called thick my toilet come that Has a hundred thousand disease hormones Or something although I didn’t check me Recently maybe they got hate or Something because you know but but but Yeah it’s like I’m like you can pick a Useless to Peter’s like toilets and Still make basically a full-time income So you can start with something like That and then eventually do something That you you can’t get more about for Sure for sure actually they’ll be kind Of fun to actually get some passive Income out of that sort of a concept Where your education is paying for Itself yeah it’s fun as well looks like I like actually getting in an issues That we get into as well like learning Something you and yeah it’s I think it’s The best way to live that lifestyle Basically it’s not like it’s you know The problem you can get into high paying Issues and doing that like you get into Like personal finance and like start YouTube and like do that kind of seven Make really good money affiliate but It’s a fun way to build sites as well so I would say I agree with you start with Something make it happen and then you Learn a lot you feel a lot but you learn
A lot and then you can do something next Let’s go over people that have existing Sites and it’s a mess and they need some Help so like it is nothing better than Putting ourselves in the shoes of these People so let’s say we have a wordpress Site that’s essentially you know the 2020 WordPress theme and 200 blog posts And all I’ve done is I’ve looked for low Competition keywords and I’ve just been Writing for that and about articles on Fiverr and I have 200 of these on that Side it gets 25,000 visits per month but It’s a [ __ ] mess and I should be Getting four or five times that what Should I do Well it would be great to have a 25k a Month mess you know on traffic because You’re just outside where you can do Like advertisement right I mean 25k you Can get media buy an x-ray and ten Thousand as well so that’s a really Decent mistake what I would start to do Is and Just my own so as I discussed how I set Up sites you know I got target pages That’s the thing that I’m trying to rank For so what you probably need to do is Identify what is a target page and it Could be one of those 200 blog posts Just because it’s a blog post does it Mean it can’t be at the top of its own Silo you know again with the virtual Silo concept pages and posts don’t
Matter so you could have a one of your You can probably identify like hey these Are the ones that are bringing me the Most traffic so what I’m gonna do is I’m Starting to virtually restructure them By taking some of these other posts and Then kind of shifting them as my Supporting posts for that target page so You don’t need to change any of the Actual physical structure it could be a Complete mess and that’s okay I’m gonna Start to reposition the site virtually By changing my links in my body content And so minister I think you look exactly Right I’m gonna start to break those 200 Up and I’m gonna say these are the ten Target pages that are bringing me the Most traffic and now these guys they Aren’t bringing me as much or a little At all but they’re relevant to that now I’m gonna start interlinking them into My virtual silo and support my target Pages and then what I might do at that Point is then maybe filtering some links Into those supporting pages and then see What if you start to get a real benefit Out of it is that Bagon will I bet You’ll see those main ones I’ll start to Move up I think your keyword base will Grow which is the more important thing The number of queries that your site is Ranking for will expand and that’s the Sign that you’ve done it correctly you Know if you’ve been stagnant or you only
Got this many keywords that you’re Ranking for and you can see this in Search console you should see those Numbers grow and then you know you’ve Done it right and that’s that’s how I Would approach this type of situation so Let’s say you brainstorm these silos and You’ve essentially done some internal Linking work um there’s gonna be a Number of pages that essentially fall Out of these silos and you feel like They’re kind of like on their own the Orphans and you don’t really have plans For that maybe you don’t make money from Them what do you do is these pages so I Do you do you get rid of them do you Just leave them alone Do you rewrite right now I leave them Alone I think pruning a page is the last Thing I want to do maybe it’s a drastic Measure if you realize like hey I’ve got This other page I can see a little bit Of camel cannibalization with this guy Then I might prune him but otherwise There’s gonna be some point where you Could use and not a fan of pruning sites For the sake of pruning I know I’ve seen Some examples were like Moz says they Did it and Brian Dean says he did it but I’m gonna guess that you’re not getting 300,000 plus visits to your site a month Where maybe that it could actually be Beneficial I think those were very edge Cases where they were able to do that so
I am NOT a big fan of that concept to go Into your okay I mean I leave the masses For the thing as well it’s like when you All content ranks from for really tiny Keywords at least like even if they’re Like and the thing is because you do Appear for these tiny cues it’s kind of Like the off chance of these passive Link building things that we talked About or you might actually just Randomly get a link to your site and and I think you know if you have a lot of Pages like in this case then it actually Can be a decent amount of link grows Over the year of something if the color Is not hurting I think that’s my problem I think the one case where I would Recommend that is maybe if two pages are Like you know very closing in project And then okay how about home page Linking like well it was your like is Links from home page importance and what Would you recommend people do in terms Of internal linking from the home page On your site usually if you’re just Getting started the home page is the one That’s getting on the links because you Can build like citations to it or you Know maybe you built a round of web to Like branded web 2.0 pointing in so That’s the one that’s probably gonna get The most juice initially just by default So if you’re in a position like where You’re just starting out or even if
You’re then kind of trying to clean up a Mess if there’s a page that’s really Important to you that’s an internal I Would get a link to it let’s say on that 200 page example let’s say you’ve Identified these are my 10 targets these Are the ones I’m gonna go after why not Have a little blurb about each of those On the home page you can do that in ways That look nice you don’t have to make it Gross But like these are the main things on Our site and this is what we’re trying To do you can have a little blurb in you Link in and then you do get a homepage Link going to your to your target page Yeah we do have quite a bit as well I Think I mean even when you do guest Posting right like guest posting very Often at least in the byline there’s Gonna be a link to your home page and so If you’ve been running guest posting for A while your site’s been around for a While like this page has the most links Of all your site about if you have like One or two blog posts that really took Off or something and it happens yeah but Like I like tooling these hot pages from The home page as well so you know like You have your you have your home page And I think Stu that hub page that leads To like 20 or 30 pages below and I find It’s like a nice flow of that direct Linkage that goes to home page okay
Would you implement all changes at once Or would you do graduate I think you can Have answered the question but let’s see Low and slow Like you want to see how it works you Know like had all those they had the 200 Posts and then they change back what do I do and it’s like yeah you know you Know you know you’re in for six months When you when you like do big drastic Change but it didn’t go well like you Know like you kind of had that purgatory Period where like even though you fix it Your site never really completely Recovers yeah sure yeah it’s it’s funny How how Google doesn’t kind of like Restore things fast for side that has um Trust in the past that I we had to be Trying for a new site sure but like you Know you were ranking this page here Okay it was awful to expect goes back to Where it was and still takes six months To go back to it was something I’m very Very curious on why they do that they Probably have a good reason that’s all My questions for site structure anything We didn’t talk about that I should have Asked and I didn’t do my homework or Clay no I think that was pretty Exhaustive A whole other thing you get into is like How to do services or local pages or Something like that but that might be a Whole other talk yeah I think that’s a
Little bit of a different it’s more like Local seo etc which kind of like follows Its own rules on top of it classic ACO Rules I would say I had a question Actually from marjana from Etobicoke Pro It’s not really to size structure but I Think it’s quite interesting basically You are known for doing single variable Testing which is essentially picking an Imaginary keyword building 10 pages on 10 different sites that target is key World I’m changing them a little bit and Using that lorem ipsum just to see um What factors seem to be coming on top With uh with as little external factors As possible so that you can isolate them Which is why it’s called single variable Testing uh-huh And margin Oh essentially so he likes This he finds it interesting and Essentially it’s the best we’ve got But I think Ted when we asked him to do The predictions for 2020 he mentioned That there is this kind of like cofactor Thing were essentially like for a factor To take effect you need another one to Also be validated or something so what’s Your take on that and how do you think That can be tested well we can test that So there has to be a point where things And using like Ted’s types of tools you Can see which factors seem to pair and So that’s where a correlational tested a That he runs we can see that we can
Start to identify these two are linked You know they like they always ping Together and so what we can do is then Isolate those we can start with one and Then add the other so in that test Environment they all get factor a and Then the say the number five result or Ever gets back to B as well and then we See if we get the movement up and that’s How you can play with cofactors within Within a single single variable model Because the how you eliminate the Situation is that all of the the test Pages have that first variable then Maybe needs to go the other way so you Can write the other way and see if okay Another test basically that like Confirms it exactly yeah yes Even though that may or may not be true I mean that’s something that we’re Playing with and that’s a pretty Exciting idea and would explain a lot of Things within SEO about like hey I did All these things that didn’t work and Then may be that you’re missing that one Trigger if you will that particular age So that’s actually something that we can Play with the problem with single Variable testing is that it’s um it’s a Long-term play it’s a lot of work it’s It takes a lot of resources it’s not Easy and fast to do which is probably Better for all this oh you’re the only One doing it for me all those things can
Be overcome for sure Is there anything did you guys like stop Testing with these cofactors is there Like one interesting thing that you can Let us know about this guy obviously you Guys been toying with the idea except I Like is that like what gave you the idea Like what made you notice it maybe like Wow I can’t take it all killing it in in Testing right now he um he’s actually Going he’s our lead tester now in IMG so He’s overseeing and doing all the peer Reviewing of the tests but he found the The number one factor do you know the Number one factor in SEO content that’s The it’s the existence of a factor so What you can but um it’s better to have Something in a signal area than nothing So the concept is you can look at the The top ranking pages for something and Let’s say they all average they have Placed something in approximately 150 Factor areas it’s the it’s the ones that You are missing are the ones that are Affecting your rank and so the people That have the most things in it you can Theme it in the negative it’s the Non-existence of a factor is a regular Checkbox is basically it’s better to get A partial check in there than to have Nothing I see so you need to compete on all 150 Factors that’s right so what you need to Do is look in the scene or have a method
To count how many factors are being hit In my niche Now how many factors are the Sites that are winning what are they Actually doing like across the board so Not just some of those big ones but even Getting into some of those smaller ones And then you can then start to optimize According to all right we need to get These these things in to match the Number of factor areas or signal areas That they’re optimizing yeah fair enough And I can imagine four different niches Is quite different to be honest like Especially 380 stuff etc like that’s What it would probably start kicking in Actually my favorites you know I think You’re gonna say that that was the Number one factor I’m warming up to the Idea that my like they might have like a Very primitive way of checking this out Yeah I’m still it’s like I don’t know I See other websites that have a lot of Credibility just going up and down like Everyone else yeah okay well I think I Think we’re done with this podcast Thanks for all your info thanks for Sharing things for being super open et Cetera it’s been great you over at page Optimizer pro which is a pleasure Optimizing tool that people can use you Can put your URL your computer’s URL Essentially see these factors that you Should be optimizing for and you are
Also a founding member of IMG which Stands for inter marketing goals so you Guys can go and sign up there it’s a Free community and you guys have a paid Member with a paid membership with the Test etcetera so yeah thanks for joining In next time mark goes on the holiday I Guess I’ll call you back you know Anything else that I forgot to say Before we hope you ass held can they get Ahold of me and it’s in IMG you can post I’m there so awesome well thanks for Joining and for the listeners see you Next week right all right