Websites vs Agency: Which one is Best for YOU?

In case you didn’t know before we Started running websites full time We actually had an agency for about four Years with mark At the beginning when we started i was Sleeping on the floor and walking on That same floor And when we sold it there was around 35 Staff so we really have a bit of Experience on both sides Building sites and agency and today we Are going to try to take the opportunity Of both of these experiences to settle The debate once and for all should you Focus on building an agency and a Service business Or should you build your own websites or Maybe both for some people it’s probably The best idea We’re also going to take the opportunity Of this podcast to share some new story We never shared before About our agency time and kind of the Transition and how we went to building Websites so let’s get started [Music] Hey everyone welcome back to the Authority hacker podcast today we’re Going to be talking about something that We really haven’t talked for in like 240 Something episodes we never really made An episode about that but we’ve actually Dedicated four years of our lives Uh to doing it which is essentially

Running an agency so now we Pretty much have at least as much Experience on both sides i think we’re Like five years plus some running sites And We had four years experience as an Agency so i think it’s a good time for Us to Reflect back and kind of like see what Business model is for who and what are The pros and cons of this Maybe can you combine both as well a lot Of people are doing that And of course because i built the agency With mark mark is doing the podcast with Me and mark What kind of goodies did you get this Week and uh oh how’s it going also Uh it’s going good thanks my uh my Memory is doing great Although evidently yours is not because We’ve actually talked about Uh agencies and our agency uh multiple Times we’ve had multiple shows dedicated To it so i don’t know if you’ve Forgotten about that Or um you know what i think we have too Many Too many episodes like 240 like come on It’s Like at some point it just blends all in My memory i guess Yeah but i mean it’s an interesting Debate to have

Because we’ve seen things from both ends Of the spectrum like we ran an agency With 30 people For what four and a bit years and we’ve Been doing our own sites for Going on seven years now six years now Seven years something like that I think we had some time to reflect back To the agency as well it’s like i feel Like i felt Quite a bit sour just after because it’s Like there’s a lot of things i didn’t Enjoy but Now i’m reflecting like i’m like it’s Probably not the agency’s problem but Rather my Problem of like how i was bad um and That if I had done things properly the Experiences have been quite different And probably my feeling about it would Feel also quite different Um but it’s also only the kind of thing That you can kind of reflect back on Several years after after you just took Some distance and you haven’t done it For a while maybe you see some other People do it differently and so on Uh so i think it’s going to be quite Interesting because you know how last Week we talked about paid links And also the same thing i think it’s Like you know basically what happened is We did

Quite a bit of paid links for a while we Did with some success etc but we also Had some Misadventures with it and we felt bad About it and then time passes and we’re Kind of observing we’re all Re-observing the market et cetera and We’re a little bit more Like flexible and trying to take a bit More distance on these things and i feel The agency is gonna kind of go the same Way so i think it’s gonna be quite Interesting but i think we should Structure this a bit because otherwise We are just gonna be rambling for an Hour and like nobody cares about that So apparently some people do actually Care about us rambling uh When you said that and i think last week Of the week before episode a bunch of People were like actually i really enjoy Your rambles Okay well maybe we’ll do a dedicated Episode to that then Um but today we actually spent like an Hour preparing that podcast so we might As well use this structure you know And the first point that we have is on Getting started Agency versus site what is the Difference and Um i think this one is actually Something that you can really separate The two quite

Quite easily but i’ll let you take it Over because you always start episodes So Go ahead so agencies are Amazing if you need to make money this Month Like today because you can set it up you Can Design a very simple product or offering That you want to sell to people And you can collect money from via Paypal or whatever for A service that you then deliver next Month or Throughout this month that is the polar Opposite Of starting your own website where Most likely you’re not going to be Profitable for In the first year uh there are obviously Cases when that can happen Um not a few really strong exceptions to That rule But in general especially if it’s your First time like don’t expect to Make a profit in the in the first year You probably see a little bit of revenue Coming in but Yeah no no serious money um so if you Need to Make some money to survive or you know Pay the mortgage or whatever Then you know don’t expect to to make a Lot of money off

Off of a site straightaway you might Want to look into um Starting an agency i remember when we Started our Agency uh it took like a week or Something to get to get her first client And it was it was some guy you knew you Played like video games with or Something do you remember that story Oh yeah yeah yeah i played lineage to Was that gay i think and then He had i can’t remember what the website Was like selling Wow gold or something oh yeah classic Um and yeah exactly it was a Customer of his i think i think he was Reselling but yeah it’s like just just Contacting people i remember there was This other guy i was playing lindas who Was like a fashion photographer And we did um we did the reputation Management for His mom who was a model and we the seo For his site as well and helped build His site et cetera so Yeah there’s always like the friend of Your mom or stuff like that that you can Kind of like sell these kind of services To Yeah it’s like you don’t always charge The most but you can make some money Actually And uh yeah i mean i i wanted to talk Also about how we started a guest post

Service on wickedfire Because i think that’s quite an Interesting one as well so we mentioned That guest what service we had for a While and you know we’ve always Mentioned that figure like how we had That once we made a thousand guest posts Right That’s cool but i think what’s what’s Interesting is how we started it here Which uh initially it we had that agency Where we essentially grew from world of Mouse and ranking for Some keywords et cetera at the time um But that guess was serious was a little Bit different that was the first time we Actually put a proper marketing plan Together and we had some kind of like Productize service etc And i think it was really cool because We found like at the time it was wicked Fire which is a forum but I think places like uh why your forum Etc would still allow you to promote Your Your stuff there and we were paying 75 Dollars per week guessing for that Thread Um and we made that kind of like Essentially like sales Thread and we just had a wufoo form at The time but i would we can only use Google form Uh right now and um and and what we did

Is we really worked hard On over delivering so the community of That forum would reply on that thread And be like oh i got my guest posts and They’re great Much better than the other services etc And we built up quite a reputation And that really snowballed that service From the beginning And actually then we upsold people to Like full consulting as well so it’s Like There is avenues where you can promote Your stuff i know people do on fiverr For example these days where they start Like a small five or service then they Upsell Or like up work as well whether it’s Like agency contracts you can actually Sell your stuff there etc so You can leverage platforms to get Started and make money quite quickly now Usually that first service that you sell To people is not always the most Profitable it pays the bills at least Like you probably pay your rent with it You do all of that Probably not going to become a Millionaire starting stuff on fiverr Although i could probably be proven Wrong by someone Um but uh but yeah that was pretty cool Another story i want to talk about Is eric carroll actually which is uh who

Is parent brother He was uh he was traveling at the time i Think it was like It’s a long time ago it was the Beginning of a toy hacker and he was Traveling at that time he had Uh an outdoor site if i remember that Um he was making a few hundred dollars With Per month but it was not enough to like Pay for his digital nomad lifestyle etc And i remember having a chat with him on Facebook i was like You know if you start a service you You’re gonna do just fine and you’re Gonna be Able to pay your bills et cetera it’s Not maybe as glamorous as starting your Own websites But at the same time it you know Your life can stay can be quite nice as A digital nomad running An agency even if like yeah it doesn’t Feel the same as owning a website and So he took that advice and actually to This day he’s still running his link Building agency And but what i remember is that within Three or four months of starting He he was at ten thousand dollars a Month basically from From someone who was plateauing at a few Hundred dollars per month from his site And

As we said websites take a long time and Also i think one thing with websites is They take Some capital to to kind of like go at a Decent speed at the beginning it takes Some money or as an agency Yeah a google form and like a fuse Like an hr subscription and like a Hunter subscription and you can already Start a link building service for Example it’s very very cheap Yeah um that that’s an interesting point Actually i remember when we started Our agency that was kind of like we had Other stuff going in Going on and then we had like a few Clients come in but when we really Committed to it It was like we dropped everything like We’re doing this Uh and we even with just a few clients We had enough Money coming in to sustain us um i don’t Think we could have done that if we were Our plan was to build our own sites or Our own site At that point because it’s just it’s Such a slow ramp up to that point Uh we would have had to like work other Jobs do other stuff in the meantime Um to i don’t even remember the Situation at the time but i arrived in Budapest and i was sleeping on the floor In your room and then started the agency

On that floor too I bought a laptop i had 600 euros left And then because i was sleeping on the Floor your parents felt bad so they paid The deposit For us to to take a place where we both Have a bed About two weeks later and then we paid Them back a few months later from the Agency money actually Um so definitely no we did not have the Finance Uh to start at the beginning but that’s Kind of cool that it started that way And Ended up with like 35 plus stuff etc Like that was um Yeah we did okay as an agency but Uh yeah it’s there’s no way in hell we Would have done okay I think the lack of uh experience as Well i think the agency You know more forgiving right i don’t Wanna i don’t wanna brag but we can’t With creative strategies that people Haven’t seen somewhere else or something Like this like You know and a lot of these things come From the agency experience actually it Comes from You know like when expedia came to us And it’s like oh it’s friday evening and On monday morning we need a hundred Thousand new title tags rewritten or

Something like that it’s like Finding like these creative ways with Mechanical talk and finding ways to Combine tools et cetera just exposing Like lots of hundreds of different Different sites and working on different Projects really beneficial I think it’s one thing to get started to Be honest it’s kind of like i like the Experience we had from the agency it Made me feel so much more confident Starting our own sites and um and a lot Of ideas we had at the beginning were From things we observed working on Client sites as well working on I remember naturally sound for example Like she had a big content site it gave Us a lot of ideas and so on and Yeah so i i i’m actually big Like if you are low on cash i’m very Pro starting some kind of agency service At the beginning to get paid to Gain experience as well if you’re like Younger with less cash i think i would Do that if you’re older with more cash Then i would consider starting sites Right away and just kind of like speed Tracking the The learning you know yeah it definitely Feels like there’s uh You can really make a lot of progress Very quickly in an agency if you have That kind of hustle Mentality versus uh your own sites it’s

More like a strategic plan and you Implement it month By month and you know you’re just so Waiting around for for the results to To come to you but when they do they’re Very nice All right we’re getting off the track Now we prepared that plan i want to Stick to this So let’s jump on to the next section Which is essentially the money making Potential how much money can you make With each business model And uh you know which which is best to Make money and What are the limitations as well so you Can make a lot of money with either Business model and there are Hugely successful agencies doing you Know hundreds of millions of years Uh hundreds of millions a year no doubt That’s a means of yeah Yeah as there are as there are websites Uh You know making millions of dollars per Month um but those are the exception Rather than the rule I would say that in general for most People The agency has a lower ceiling Lower potential ceiling than your own Sights And there i i feel like the compounding Effect of your work

Over enough time stacks up um within With your own site to the point where in You know five six Seven eight nine ten years you can be Doing really really well and obviously Your Your efforts will compound a little in An agency but It almost felt like when we were doing It at least there was a lot of leakage Like People would leave clients would quit uh Clients would move on Clients would just stop stop working With us and It always felt like you know two steps Forwards one step back Or sometimes two steps forward two steps Back and the thing i noticed most when We moved over to working on our own Sites was that it It really felt like ev we were just Building on top of stuff we we’ve done Before and And making progress in that way um and So i think the The potential sealing for that reason um Over the long term Is much higher i also feel that because There’s more options for monetizing With your own sites you know we started Our our websites with display ads and Affiliate offers But now we’re into info products i know

A lot of people into like physical Products and You know there’s there’s many different Actions right you can yeah use many Different avenues you can You can go with this and make lots of Money Um so i i think that the ceiling from That perspective Um is it is also very high but and this Is the big Big but i think there are a lot of sites Out there The majority of sites out there are not Making any money or not making much Money Because people start them and they don’t Follow through to till that point where They They start to you know reach escape Velocity Yeah i mean i think the business model Is fundamentally different right Because as an agency you’re essentially Selling your time and it scales linearly Right so it’s like for every Extra unit of time there’s a marginal Cost so every you sell an extra guest Post or you sell an extra i don’t know Site 30 or something Well a number of man hours need to go Into this And so that increases your costs Together with the revenue

Whereas with websites once you’ve built A page it could Potentially get way more traffic without Any extra work from you And make more money provided you’re able To get that traffic and as a result What it does is that you you have that Marginal profit potential that’s much Higher on website than it is on Uh services because of the nature of the Business model and so That is something to keep in mind the Problem is to fulfill that potential With websites which is not always the Easiest thing and then if you don’t it’s Like you You will make less money because when You sell let’s say a website audit like Even if it’s not very good most clients Will kind of pay you or even if it’s Quite bad they’ll pay you half or Something If you build a website and it’s and Google doesn’t rank it you get zero Um so so the the the risk exposure is Much higher But the upside is also much higher Whereas with services You essentially reached your ceiling Easier but the ceiling is lower Yeah that’s why i yeah yeah i’d also say That it’s kind of like with a website You’re either successful or you’re not Yeah versus with an agency like you

Could be a little bit successful kind of A bit more successful You know there’s many different people Along that that sort of path but i just Because the fact that there’s only you Know 10 positions on On google for for a keyword only a few Sites can can be there for For each keyword yeah it’s quite Frequent to scale your agency as well But not make more money as well because You have to like hire people because You know if you grow bigger you need Middle management you need all of that Because you can’t Manage every employees on so actually Like as you grow in complexity your your Cost Your marginal cost per unit produced Increases As an agency whereas hopefully as a You know i mean as a website it does Increase a bit as well let’s say you Grow a really big editorial team you Also need to start doing Middle management et cetera so there is A degree of increase but it’s much more Uh it’s much easier to contain in the Sense that um Because the content you wrote last month Still produces revenue et cetera Provided is doing okay like You you kind of get that compounding Effect that is much faster

Than you would get with an agency so Basically agency Lower money but easier to reach uh Websites higher risk higher reward i’d Also say if you look at the revenue Per employee or per staff member then The numbers are just infinitely higher When you When you’re running your own sites Versus versus an agency it was a real Problem for us Getting people getting the right people Hiring too fast or too slow or like Trying to keep up with that That demand is very very very difficult To to do And it restricts you massively from from Doing a lot of Things such as hiring the right people I’m actually remembering it’s like I can’t remember it was like a pretty Bad month in the agency it’s like we’re In the office And you were doing like the monthly Financial like breakdown or something And we had like 30 staff like a nice Office who’s like a big terrace and Stuff like stuff was happening right and We had clients etc And max like after all the costs of Everything the staff whatever if we paid For links and everything We made two hundred dollars and it was It was it was fifty fifty dollars

Something like that it was terrible Basically it was basically i mean after Paying our salaries as well it wasn’t That bad but like It’s like it’s easy to and it’s one of These things right if i go to like Entrepreneur meetups or something i see A lot of these People who might be in this situation we Have a new situation right i’m calling People out but i’m calling ourselves out As well right Um it’s like where you people Look like they have a big flourishing Company it’s amazing etc But actually when you look at like the Revenue minus the costs It’s not it’s not that impressive you Know and and i’ve I don’t know some people feel entitled By that it kind of annoys me in real Life you know There’s a there’s a lot of sad work Going on there what What really sort of intrigues me is When a family member or friend or Something is like Perhaps hasn’t seen you yeah it’s like Hey How are you doing oh how’s your business And you know you just say oh it’s going Pretty well yeah it’s good Um of course they can’t say how much What’s your net profit per month at the

Moment because that’s like you know faux Pas But they say they’ll say oh how many People have you got working for you Which is kind of like an indirect Way of asking the same thing because We’re trying to gauge your success Based on that and throughout most of our Agency Uh life i would always answer the Question you know The number was always much higher than It is now you’re quite proud about it You know Yeah yeah like you know you can’t spend Employees in in in that way so it was Uh yeah it just followed you know what Sucks even more is you need to manage Them you know you need to talk to them Instead of doing work that actually Makes money it’s like our team right now Is much less than solidify for sure like It’s like It’s and it’s like we’re making way more Money than we used To do with the agency so it’s like People who use like Number of employees as a gauge of Success like i don’t know off It’s just like i i’m really annoyed by That it happens all the time when you go To entrepreneur meetups etc and it means Nothing I mean company like ahrefs is a good

Example they shared the numbers publicly I think two years ago right and they Have 40 employees and they make 40 million Per year um two years ago So that’s like one million dollar Revenue per employee that’s excellent You know Um and there’s many many many many many Companies that will look much bigger Et cetera will have much bigger offices Etc i mean I i’m telling you ncaa they will hate me Again but seomers does not make a Million per employee because they have Way more employees Um and and even though they probably Make more revenue Um they did i don’t think that this one Million per employee for example but As a business i mean i don’t know the Profit margins of seo merch but i Believe that You know the profitability of ahrefs is Much more enviable than Than than semester it’s also probably a Much nicer business to run at the same Time Um so it’s basically yeah it i guess It’s a sightseeing on like number of Employees etc I see like don’t get pride like get Be proud for making a lot of money for Employee rather than being proud

To have a lot of employees and i think That’s a that’s a bit of a A thread meal a lot of people who start Get into It’s actually a treadmill not a thread Mill um a treadmill Oh yeah it’s right nearly i corrected That in the notes as well but You know i haven’t done that you didn’t Read it um i i do want to i do want to Say though just on that point of people Um that there’s a real problem a real Challenge within With running an agency and managing how Many people you have i mean we’ve talked About the fact that you need more people But Let’s say you win two three new big Clients You know in a week then it can suddenly Be quite challenging to staff That that that project because you know You You have let’s say 10 people and they’ve They’ve all got their stuff to do so Suddenly you’re having to Redistribute resources or you’re trying To hire someone new To work to work on that or even worse You’re hiring people with the Expectation Of those clients which we did a lot we We got a big office much bigger than we Needed with the expectation of growing

And We didn’t grow as fast as we wanted so That caused some problems and You know having many many times that We’re like oh this this Thing we’re doing this guest post Service we’re doing or uh you know this Type of link building this clients uh is Really taking off so we need to Get more people oh quick let’s hire some People and there’s a real hustle to like Make stuff happen and in the rush of Things inevitably we made subpar Hiring decisions at times and hired the Wrong people Now in our current business running our Own websites it’s so much nicer Because our attitude is always the time Yeah we hire a players Only a players only the best people and You know despite the fact that sometimes There’s you know demand for Extra people in certain areas if we Don’t find someone who’s the right fit We wait and we’re patient and we’ll come To and we’ll come to it where we we find The right right person eventually You can’t do that with an agency yeah i Think that’s what Makes the level of work for many Agencies like Questionable sometimes uh compared to Building your own team because if you Take this approach

Because building your team you can take Your time and also you can pick the Right person for your niche as well or Whatever like you you can be a little Bit more granular in who you hire versus When an agency hires someone obviously They need to kind of Be a fit for most clients so that it Makes business sense for them to hire That person And they need to hire facts because That’s what happens well by the way we Jumped into difficulties Uh i’m saying that for the editor Because they’re gonna they’re gonna Freak out when they edit it Um but um yeah so you end up with Less good people and um as a result also Because they are Less of a good fit they tend there tends To be more of A rotation of employees like people who Leave and people who get fired because They did a bad job like We fired a lot more people during the Agency days that we fire people now I think that’s partly okay that’s maybe That’s because It’s partly down to us though and like Just we didn’t know how to hire People we hired the wrong but the Pressure we had as well The pressure we had to fill positions Fast because like that client we had a

Call with him on friday night And he wants to start next week and we Have absolutely no capacity May have kind of forced us because it Was kind of the condition to growth it’s Like being able to sell the clients that Knock on your door or whatever Um forced us to also make subpar Decisions so i think That’s a obviously it depends how you Talk to your clients how you negotiate And what the expectations are Um but usually when people are like hot Like you know when you’re selling to Them And they’re excited about it if you wait Too long it’s pretty frequent that times Never start and stop Answering your emails if you’re like oh Let’s start in two months or something And I do think it’s smarter though and i see A few agencies do that these days to Have Like to to limit your capacity to what You can and have it well and have a Queue have a wait list And have people join that because that That actually has effect of Making your service or offering more Scarce and people like oh i want in how Can i get in can i skip the queue jason Do that yeah Yeah um yeah i think it’s working well

For him And uh and i can see that and i think We’ll talk about the limitations of like The different types of agencies a bit Later Uh i think another difficulty with Agencies is not just people it’s Actually promoting your agency Um first of all i mean there’s kind of Like different Angles like some people just promote in The scope of their city for example so Like You know seo agency leads or seo Agency manchester or london or whatever Um or people can You know usually when you start people Tend to be catch-all They tend to just pick any job that is Given to them but the problem is like Then there are thousands of competitors Like our You know outsourced agencies online that You don’t meet face-to-face That do every kind of work i mean that’s Pretty much all of them And the thing is when you’re doing Marketing for other people All day the last thing you want to do at The end of the day Is marketing for your own agency and i Mean we know it like for having a blog With four blog posts For like five years or something or no

Agency they did okay actually you know At the time it was kind of the premise Of a toriyaka or wrote some cool stuff On rock and roll nicoles that did really Well and stuff like that but God damn it’s like we were doing this All day for other people and It was very difficult to find the time And energy to To do that for ourselves and uh And yeah it was it was quite difficult For us i don’t know i don’t know what You think about that I mean i didn’t really do too much of That side of things because i was doing More like the The um operational aspects i guess But uh yeah we we definitely dropped the Ball on On that one i think really the problem Was we had So many different channels of like how We were finding new clients it was like We did some direct outreach we tried Some ads at some point We had a lot of like word of mouth People knew us like referrals Um affiliates resellers we did some White labeling We really made the mistake of trying to Do everything i see Nowadays like the successful agency Service businesses They pick one thing and they do it and

They just do that and they do it really Well Yep and that’s and they repeat the same Process yeah again and again Because for us we were like in Reinventing the wheel every campaign you Know Which you know is good from an Efficiency perspective but i I think that’s also a hindrance of of Agency work from a You know entrepreneurial perspective Like it’s not really fun doing the same Thing over and over and over and over And okay it can be cool To make things more efficient and stuff But If you’re if you’re just repeating the Same piece of work every day It’s not as interesting as say working On you know a brand new client in a new Niche or with a new Celebrity at the helm that you have to Figure out how their content works these Kind of things You know now that we’re talking about This i’m thinking that our Crazy inefficiency as an agency is Actually what gave us the weapons to do Quite well with websites Because instead of building that one Process that we do really well We touched everything and so as a result We got we got

A really wide range of experience like From Teaching analytics to people to like Doing cro to doing seo to doing ppc to Doing all of that And uh that yeah i guess I guess that’s an angle you can take if You want to learn like if you don’t want To make the most money but rather Like have this like agency pass for like Two three years and then switch to Websites Then maybe you can be the casual agency Um and then that just works with World of mouse that can be an angle even If you understand that it’s not The best way to grow that in the future And that usually these kind of agencies When they grow too big they become Unmanageable and It makes your life a little bit hell Basically speaking Speaking of making your life uh hell Let’s talk about clients Uh you stole my transition so that’s That’s something which you and i let’s Say we’re not Naturally um meant to do i I think that’s fair to say i learned a Lot though For sure i mean comparing gayle’s Organization you had to get like an Organization coach in the first Year to like help you to to sort out and

Arrange your email because i like people Just you just wouldn’t reply to people Sometimes that it was really Changed that much fair enough it was It’s got a lot better though if you if You look back at things Um it’s you have to really be on the Ball You have to respond to people fast you Have to Even when they’re being idiots or Frustrating or You know just doing saying stupid You have to explain the basics to them You know you have to stay like Nice you know exactly you have to stay Perfect my problem is that My problem is i would just tell people What i think and then I i’m not not that they’re stupid or Whatever but rather like okay this Decision is not the best because this is A nice And i would go to a client i remember i Went to that guy and i said do you want To make more money or do you want to Just Do that thing that you want to do Because i literally did an a b test to Prove him my solution was better And again it was like i don’t care i Just want to do that and i was like well We’re done walking he preferred his own Design

Over uh like some kind of sales page Form That proved that it converted better so He’d rather yeah we have Sales by his own design than a design he Just didn’t like so much Objectively but would have made it more Money so Yeah we had another interesting example Of uh Of a client when we actually did a Really good job for them So it was a wedding dj company in the uk And we got them so much work that they Were Fully booked for six months so they Fired us Because well why would you pay for for Marketing when you don’t need any Because you’re You’re fully booked makes sense Subjectively but it feels like all the Work and all the effort we were putting In Was like just spat back out at us Because we did too good of a job So it’s like well is the incentive Really to do just good enough of a job That they keep paying but no more Probably i think that’s a big one Actually with agency It’s like you just need to give some Kind of return on investment for your Clients but

It’s like you have no incentive to do Excellent you know like you just have You just need to be doing good enough And then just look at the portfolio of Clients let’s say you have 10 clients And be like okay well these guys are Making 10 profit 15 Profit whatever uh now let’s look at the Guys that are in the red And work on them only to try to also get Them to 10 15 percent Instead of pushing the guys that are 10 15 even if they still have low hanging Fruits That you could push to like 50 percent You don’t do that because You’re not gonna get fired if you make People money and Um and then your goal is to just keep Everyone paying because that’s how you Make money as an agency so There’s a bit of like misaligned Incentives if depending how you charge i Guess because some agencies they charge Based on results And i think it’s a better way like it’s Harder to convince people to do that in Some Some situations though yeah but like It’s one of these things where it’s like You know it’s like if we ever reconsider Doing an agency like let’s say No i’m just saying it’s like it’s Hypothetical you know

Um i would i would say okay i would Probably want a base fee and then i want The rest based on performance So that you know i feel like i’m Essentially running like an affiliate Campaign or something and then i have a Chance to Really make a lot of money if i’m doing Really well and well that’s the kind of Stuff that i’m gonna think about on Sunday and really try to push et cetera Versus Uh just do my office hours and just get Paid whatever fee i charge to people and Then just Essentially try to maintain that five to Twenty percent Um profit for the client and not really Try harder you know so It depends how you charge we charge like A fixed fee so um We got that each uh issue but i think For every type of Everywhere you charge there’s Essentially downsize and upsides and You’re not exactly aligning incentives With your clients which makes it harder To work with them sometimes In a long time it’s also there’s this Element of like red tape i could i can Remember so many times when we wanted to Change something on the website but Their Uh editor had to approve it in the legal

Department and then they would send it To their Web designer who had like hooked them in On some expensive thing that made it Really difficult to Change their website yeah all this Stupid stuff that we just don’t have to Deal with anymore because we want to fix Something it’s like okay let’s just log In and do it You know the thing is well yeah when you Have a lot of clients as well it’s like You kind of like always in that Emotional roller coaster where you like Sign up new people and lose some people All the time And it’s like for me emotionally Affected me Like i thought my life was more unstable Kind of like it’s just a feeling it Wasn’t Um but it just felt like i don’t know Just like you would feel i would feel Like a blue every time a client would Could and You know a lot of clients would quit Like you know it’s a bit of like Getting mad or whatever like whatever Reason that is like It can happen and so it’s quite Emotionally tiring to have to deal With all of that all the time like it’s So much nicer to just run your own site And just like okay well there is ups and

Downs etc but you you just you know You’re with yourself you know and like It’s It’s you don’t have to deal with People’s crazy emotional rollercoaster And then throwing it at you um for Whatever reason and personally because Of my personality It’s like it affected me a lot and i Feel a lot happier not having to deal With that to be honest Yeah it felt like at any moment the Whole thing the whole Like house of cards could just fall Apart right But don’t you think that you could also Say the same thing about your website if Like google just you know some algorithm Update and like boom you lost your Traffic The thing is because we’re making quite A bit more profit with websites Like we have the cash pillow to like Just rebuild if we need to you know it’s Like i’m not worried about that Whereas as an agency because you have More staff because you have Like the cost the structure costs are Higher once you start growing It’s cheaper when you do the work Yourself but then as soon as you Get past yourself then because of that Linear growth of cost together with the Growth of the agency

You can end up at a point where you lose A lot of clients at once but you still Have a lot of people on payroll And that’s kind of like that stressful Point i guess That is a little bit less stressful for Us now on websites because as we said You know the content you wrote six Months ago is still here okay you need To update it etc like there’s a bit of Like Decay with content these days but not Nearly as much as you would have When you run a service or an agency etc And And and as a result the pressure even if Things go down like Imagine like we lose 50 of revenue Tomorrow we can still pay everyone we’re Still fine right Um couldn’t say that was an agency No i have nothing to say Okay fine so but That’s the difference it’s like and so Like it’s because of the higher Profitability of running websites You it’s like and because to be honest We have just more time as well so time Built up that cash pillow as well etc That makes us feel a bit more safe Um yeah it feels better so overall yeah Agencies are A more emotional business so if you if You like some people thrive into that

And i i think i want to talk about Personality types of like which business Model goes with personality types a bit Ibm um but if you Some people thrive in that and do really Well and it’s like a massive opportunity To actually Just serve that and do really well some Other people Like me just tend to just not enjoy it That much and prefer to just Build my computer have loud music and Just walk on a website or something And not have to talk to anyone for the Day except mark on the podcast in the Evening but that’s about it He’s lying he doesn’t talk to me every Day and he ignores me that’s true I i will say it though like from a Personality perspective I think that uh this this concept of Google just Turning off your traffic overnight that Can be quite jarring to a lot of people When there’s like Nothing you can do in some situations to To correct that or you don’t know what To do at least At least when you’re dealing with people And the client threatens to quit you can Like Figure out what’s going on and you know Potentially solve that problem you can’t Talk to them you can reason with them

You can’t reason with the google Algorithm in in the same way at least so That’s that’s always facebook ads Accounts exactly And i think that if you’re um if you’re Just running one site Then that’s like a single point of Failure like you lose your traffic on That that’s your whole business With clients it’s like you know what Once you have More than sort of 10 20 clients you lose One two Three in a month and yeah it can suck But you know It it’s not really your whole business Going away in At once so it’s a little bit more stable From that perspective i think I agree i think so because also you can Run 10 clients but it’s hard to run 10 Websites you know And running 10 websites properly so it’s More like that i think it’s easier to To run to run more of these client Campaigns and so as a result you get More stability Again it’s kind of that trade-off that Was at the beginning it’s like Agencies lower ceiling more stability But less total Less potential and then versus websites Essentially higher risk higher Volatility higher rewards you know it’s

Basically what it’s looking like from Our analysis I also wanted to talk about competition So if we start a website in a niche Then there’s only a certain number of of Keywords And and kind of topics we can target With that website And for each keyword we are going to be Competing against Essentially nine other websites on the On the serp Right you know no one goes to page two Of google these days so Anyone below that doesn’t really matter The difference with Running an agency though is that okay Let’s say we we started An seo agency in london and we’re just Competing for local business there I mean there’s still i don’t know like Hundreds of thousands of businesses In london that could we potentially work With but most agencies these days Again especially in 2020 will be working Remotely with clients and that just Really opens up Tens of millions of businesses around The world uh That can potentially be your your Clients so you’re fighting over Fewer clients in the same way that you Know Versus fighting over sorry you’re

Fighting Not over fury you’re fighting over a lot Of clients Versus you’re fighting over just a few Spots on the serve that makes sense I disagree with that because there’s a Lot of keywords as well like if you Think Okay there’s 10 spots for that one Keyword but there’s also like so many Variations et cetera like you can also Find Small holes it’s it’s not the same Because it’s like People still don’t have that same Digital vision as they have real life Vision so it’s like understanding like Where is the small issues of clients in Real life It’s more easy for people to understand Than it is to Find these gaps in keywords etc um but The the Quantity i don’t have that problem the Quantity factor there The differential is massive though like There’s just so many businesses out There and all of them Want more visibility want more leads Want more customers and if you’re an Agency you can help with that There’s only okay there there might be Quite a few that you can find but There’s not

There’s a there’s a finite number let’s Put it that way yeah and also because Even if there’s a lot of keywords all of The same size rank for the for these Many keywords as well like in you know When an agency like I mean the house niche and house line is A good example right sure there’s a lot Of health keywords But you’ll find health line on all these Subs and it’s like so it’s Yeah i i i you have a point um it is Google is a bit more competitive than Real life basically and Um because there’s so many more avenues In real life and also there’s a lot of People that just tend to prefer real Life referrals Over googling stuff um all right you Want to do the Coast section yes um this is This is getting your plays into our Personality this is one of the reasons Why Uh i became really happy when we started Working On our own sites because in in an agency It felt like you’re always Expected to like perform every single Month no matter what happens Uh and you’re getting judged every Single month for it no no client takes a Long term Term view yeah you stopped over every

Month exactly Uh with your own website uh you can Really take your foot off the gas like You know We did sometimes if you stop working on One website work on another website And okay it’s not just going to stay Exactly the same because other people Are Competing and you know it gets out of Date and various things freshness and All that But you can let it coast for a Considerable amount of time i mean there Have been times when we Were just like we didn’t blog on Authority hacker for Well right now nine months or something Like that right now we’re not Posting anything really on the blog it’s Just like we focused on tasks we focused On A lot of like uh premium content for Members etc And also just other projects to be Honest but by the way like if anyone’s Listening and is not on our email list We are reshooting the authority site System at the moment Uh we we sent an email out about so much During our past lunch but we’ve been Working on that for Uh many many months now since june we All knew huge amount of work um

To to do all this uh so that’s one of The benefits of this type of business Model We can work on a project like this and Then You know we’re still getting the same Amount of traffic roughly uh Every single month from organic yeah Yeah so that yeah i mean like Now is a good time for toriyaka like i Hope we can go back to it next year but Like Yeah right now it’s kind of like no not Much is happening on the blog and You know traffic is more or less stable Basically like some ups i’m down Nothing too crazy but yeah it’s nice you You get That essentially passive traffic Obviously if we left it for like five Years I don’t think there will be much traffic Left like this there is a degree of Erosion of traffic Uh on websites as well especially these Days when google really loves that Refresh content stuff etc Um but but you know within a reasonable Amount of time you can let it glide With an agency there’s no chance like It’s like three months later you come Back there’s nothing left you know Apart from that one guy you remember That one guy who signed up

Uh we signed him up and then for three Years he paid and never ever checked any Report or anything And he was just on subscription do you Remember that guy yeah i do Great client i wish they were all like That yeah so that that one guy was Yeah i wish i wish it was like that but Yeah so it can happen that some clients Don’t really care so much Um and rebuild for three years in our Case uh But that’s not gonna be the case on most Clients and a lot of cars would just Really be on your back actually they Would want like a monthly call they will Want you to talk Them through the reports and all of that And it’s it’s a lot of work actually so Uh you can’t even taking holidays is a Bit more difficult When you run an agency like real Holidays where you’re not working Uh when you’re on the site it’s it’s Quite doable you know it’s like we tend To have these big projects and when we Complete one i think it’s a good time to Take a break if you want Take two week like take two weeks off And then just the thing changes too much Unless there’s Some crazy google update the day you Leave on your holidays uh it should be But even then there’s like all that much

You can do about it anyway so you might As well just kick back and enjoy the Pina colada on the beach Yeah it’s like i like this i like i like The fact that The way we structure our work as well Right because when we run websites We’re able to as i said just pick some Big project like let’s say we want to Launch an info product or we want to Launch a new site even like for example We’re finishing a new site right now And um there’s probably like a few weeks Of work Left for it to feel like you know the First version is here you know And um and then well we tend to we tend To push quite hard Like probably tonight i’m gonna be Walking till like 8 9 p.m on this To to like finish that thing but when It’s done It’s like you know if i feel like taking The day off on tuesday I i don’t mind and i just do it and like Nobody’s gonna tell me anything and we Have this kind of like lighter Periods of work where we can focus more On personal life and Doing things during the day as well not Just work and we have these kind of like Crushing periods where we like you know The competitive side the competitive Side of us

Wants to complete that project do it as Well as possible and I feel that i can you know push myself During this crashing period because we Also have these rest periods kind of After And it would i remember the agency was a Constant Treadmill um and um And and it was you know there was a bit Of a burnout at the end you know and That’s it feels like a more balanced Lifestyle basically For me let’s talk about exit potential Now because i think we’re One of the few we’ve done a lot of Partnerships who have Sold an agency and also sold uh A website that we’ve we’ve built um So let’s talk about some of the Differences there because we’ve talked Quite a bit about selling websites and Stuff on the show but Not so much about selling an agency Actually that’s not right we did we did Do one episode Um maybe four years ago and selling our Agency but You know most people listening would Have heard that one so let’s get into it Uh straight up numbers so a website will Sell for Typically 30 to 40x monthly profit An agency will sell for about 12 or at

Least it was when When we sold ours i think it’s smaller Now i think it’s more like Uh i thought again i talked with some People who consider selling the agencies A bit more now Again it also depends on how you Construct how you build Your your business yeah just inherently With a website The value is in the domain the content Uh the the links Everything which is kind of somewhat Static with an agency the value is in The relationships and the people Which are much harder to transfer over To A new owner unless you’re very rigorous In your Sops documentation and you have Really thought about doing this from From from the start if you’ve never Thought about selling your website It’s very easy it’s not going to take You very long to like get it into the Shape where you can It’s a sellable asset with an agency i Mean it took us Over six months um and you know even Then it was You would argue that it wasn’t really in The best place to be Be sold at the time so and afterwards as Well

Obviously there’s a lot more work from From us you know Managing the transition when the Relationships and all that kind of stuff I i’m i’m just thinking of when you say Transition in the relationship i’m Thinking Of uh that one client transfer call we Had Uh with one of our project manager the New owner And the two of us and it was a client That we knew quite well I’m not gonna say his name but he like We knew him quite well and he knew his Account manager quite well for like two Or three years at this point Uh and he was an agency in australia And literally the client like we were in Thailand at the time i think Uh like uh all of us and the client Jumps on the call And starts like talking about how the Account manager is going to be banging Ladyboys and everything And the new owner just goes like what The hell did i just buy as a business or Something Uh but this client really had like Prestigious clients right we work for Like big companies through him et cetera Like He was a good client um like he was Spending five figures a month and so on

It was it was good but like But they kept working together for a Long time afterwards as well Yeah but like it’s like you know it it Is difficult sometimes to pass on Like these relationships because when You have an agency as i said like you Know We’re joking with him but like the new Owner doesn’t have that relationship but It feels weird to jump in etc And so yeah it’s it’s it is a challenge To sell an agency much more than selling Your website obviously You know like if you wanted to sell a Site like a toy hacker i think would be Even more challenging because you Essentially need to introduce We’re not doing this by the way don’t Worry um just It’s good to take as an example because Everyone knows it um because yeah So like we’re like the personality the Face behind it so like a lot of the Value is in Mark and gale rather than just the Domain itself Uh which would be the case if it was Like a thin affiliate site with like no Persona no audio no no Like repeat audience it was just relying On like single clicks through Um from google to but yeah This goal reminds me of uh how difficult

It was to pass Like you know relationships and so on And uh and Yeah it’s it’s it’s not easy to sell an Agency at all Anything to add on site in agency versus Selling a site no Okay um now let’s talk about the Types of personality each type and like Things people should like for each type Of business right so I prefer this note so i’m gonna do it um Essentially If we had i mean first of all i want to Talk about if we had to start an agency If we had to start an agency again i Would i mean at this point i would not Do a catch-all agency anymore i would Probably do Something that is like niche specific so You know how i mean we’ve done that for Toy hacker again i’d like to take a toy Hacker As an example because it’s an example Everyone knows if they’re listening to This podcast Which is we did not target online Marketing we targeted authority sites Right we took some kind of like We said we sidestepped the niche with Like a specific angle so that we could Find us A smaller audience but an audience that Would be more engaged

Than if we just talked about blogging Online marketing or something like this And i would do something a bit similar With an agency right so i would do maybe An agency only for content sites maybe We run corporate blogs only for example Like i would Maybe do that i will run we do only sas Uh launch marketing i would love to do Like launches as well like we’ve Done a lot with the toy hacker and some Other sites uh or like Software the service or e-commerce or Something that i would focus on that and Then just kind of like Sell the specialization so that i Essentially bypass all the generic Agencies and Like people feel like oh i’m hiring Specialists not just random marketers Um i’ll probably charge higher and get a Few clients at the beginning It’s kind of like um we didn’t have that That luxury when we started Because we needed money right i was Sleeping on the floor remember um And but but if we do it right now I would probably just pick one or two Clients charge high and then just build These processes that you can repeat and Repeat again And spend the time to build uh you know We mentioned that tool we use slab.com Right so i would build a slab

For the company with like all the how we Do things etc And even if you make less money just Like pay the bills with a few clients Don’t make a lot of money but then When you hire your first staff you know There’s like 100 pages on slap they can Just go pick it up and do the processes And you just talk them through these Videos there’s everything Basically i would rebuildatoria hacker Pro for my own company Uh it’s basically what i would do and Then i would keep some time to market Myself as well it’s like That was our mistake as well like once You have your focus once you have your Processes etc then because you don’t Have a lot of clients you can figure out A marketing plan which you never have Time to If you’re always selling and running on That treadmill of selling Um and and after that then start hiring People basically that’s Kind of how we start uh an agency i’m Not gonna say how we would start a Website because you can go actually on Autohackertraining.com and see that Um so i’m actually gonna skip that part Um we have that free training Yeah just just to add to the bit about Starting an agency i think Focusing in on a business area or a type

Of client where They have a lot of money they have a big Marketing need and It’s growing so like sas e-commerce That kind of thing fantastic i don’t get Into doing um Digital marketing for iron mongers or Something like that I mean it’s an extreme example but um Yeah that makes such a big difference Um and we found as well that companies Which were receiving investment money So like silicon valley types um they Were much easier to sell because They almost like had money that they had To spend uh So yeah a little bit easier in that Sense i’d also say sometimes the service Is a big one yeah I’d also try and like even niche down A little bit further so like we do Digital marketing for sas It’s okay but like if you take like uh Let’s say you know people marketing Success or something yeah or people In a certain round of funding we get you From here to here Kind of thing like have a very specific Reason for people to come to you over Any other Competitor and the more you can niche Down the easier Of a more of an like no-brainer it’s Going to be for the person i think

Beginners are scared of that actually Like when you start you’re scared of Doing this um because you don’t you Always say no To the people you want to say yes and Also you don’t always have access to People that would buy that service Initially so it’s like reaching them is A bit tricky Um it can be done though and i think It’s a better way of doing it so it’s Like it’s more challenging But uh you get better upsides from it Um okay that was just the parentheses Final point don’t compete on price like If you’re in a race at the bottom to be Like the cheapest link building agency Or whatever else It’s a war that you you the winners will Also be losers Comes from the guys who used to rank Number one for cheap seo About about 10 years ago uh And had the website called matchipsu.com That was our domain actually it’s Probably a ppm Put that in archive.org and have a look At the Magnificent the stock image guy that was Like this do you remember that on the Home page Good times um but um okay let’s talk About personalities because i think it’s A really important one

And um i think people who start agencies They do better if they’re more extrovert People are good at networking Good that’s like i call it schmoozing People just like making people like them And like you know shaking hands and Making deals and that kind of stuff Obviously not in 2020 don’t shake hands But other than that Uh usually that works pretty well um if You don’t mind the idea of having Clients as well And i think it’s also you know because We said you make money faster with Agencies like Some people don’t want that big exit They just want to make 20k a month Like they want to make good money per Month but they don’t want to make like Millions they just want to have that Lifestyle that they can go to the nicest Restaurant in town or whatever Rent a nice place with a view on the City uh and You know go for their trips in business Class and You know pay for all of that have a Little bit of saving or like have a nice Car whatever it is And they don’t really care about that Big exit and if you’re more like that Cash flow person that wants to make that Money And your ambitions are below 100k a

Month Let’s say um i think agencies is a good Business model as well And you need to also be fine with Essentially repeating the same process Over and over because that’s the Simplest way to run your agency rather Than running the Running this uh like reinventing the Wheel every time basically Um and on the other side people who do Better with websites tend to be a bit More entrepreneurial like They have this big ambition but they Tend to have frugal lifestyles So it’s more like um you know you see a Lot of i mean a lot of like change Minecraft whatever Wearing the same h m t-shirt that i’m Wearing all the time Uh and all of that but at the same time Um they’re ambitious they want to do Well but they don’t need to do well Right now And um there are problem solvers they Like to like Bump into an issue they never Encountered and try to figure it out and Try to Learn it and and kind of like progress By doing different things every day and So on This is more the website mentality Basically that’s that’s kind of my

Opinion What do you think of this um i think There’s different types of people that That run a website um I wouldn’t be so quick to like just Pigeonhole them in this In the same way i think just the fact That the like Group of people we hang out with and who Are in our audience and yeah something It’s almost like self-selecting in a Certain way But you look at um what’s her name the Making sense of sense Person i can’t remember um And she has a massive website uh in i am And like a Course a huge community um but it’s Mostly women Um ours is like overwhelmingly Men oh yeah and it’s just really Interesting like the different Types of people that you have having That’s like more sort of like mommy Blogger-esque Not quite but i think we’re just Only seeing one small subset of the type Of the people who Who run websites and whoever have their Own businesses so that’s true So that’s maybe clouding our vision Somewhat so i just want to be careful of That Fair enough um okay to close this

Podcast because we’ve been rambling for A while Uh remember you guys told us you like Rambling so yeah well here you go Um would you go back And build an agency again if everything Fell apart like if everything fell apart Would you Like what what number position of Opportunities would be the agency would Be on top would be at the bottom What would you put above or below you Know it would be pretty far down Um i i think it would be it would be Higher than i would like if you’d asked Me this In the two three if you ask me this oh No sorry that’s the bomb That’s always at the bottom but if you’d Asked me this You know a year or two after we left or Sold our agency i would have said Never no way in a million years now like After having this discussion looking Back i’m like actually we did a lot of Things wrong and like We just did this just did this it could Have worked um so Like i would i wouldn’t totally rule out Completely As an option but still it’s like it’s Not it wasn’t fun and you know Hindsight you you can often forget like The

The bad times and like the emotions and And stuff Um fair enough so i i would honestly Never go back i’d rather do that than Get a job but Probably i’d do something else instead But now what do you think about people Who are interested in authority sites But maybe don’t have A lot of cash available um but maybe Could make some time Um like if there’s kind of the argument Right it’s like could they run Some kind of you know marketing service From all the stuff they’ve been learning And use that cash towards their site Versus just Grinding without cash on their sites you Know what i mean Yeah and like how do you absolutely People people could do that and i think That there’s Maybe i mean it depends where you are in Your experience right Because you can’t just start an agency If you have zero Skills or or knowledge like you have to Have some kind of Underlying experience or knowledge or Something to get started Yeah so i think that If you’re the type of person that’s Maybe been grinding away for a couple Years and like never made any headway

Um then starting an agency to like get Your Your feet wet uh get maybe so you can Quit your Job wherever your day job that you Dislike or hate if you’re in that Situation you’re really trying to get Away from a job you hate Then this can be a really good Short-term solution I think um even if you you plan on Getting into authority Authority sites long-term um but you Just have to be a little bit a little Bit careful because It can also like suck up a lot of your Time and It can prevent you from actually having The energy to work on your own site like What you said Before you’re doing marketing and stuff All day for other people the last thing You want to do in the evening is like do Do it for yourself i was gonna say that I would say yes but i would say don’t Overcome it Like the goal is not to get rich from The agency it’s just to One accumulate experience and to making Money so that you can Essentially you let’s say you’re Spending an hour working on a client And that buys you three or four hours of Writing from someone else then that’s

That’s when it’s a worldly trade because Then you can get more than one day hours Of work from one day Of work you know um so it’s kind of like The way i would look at it but i would Not look at it as a way to Fill up your bank account as high as Possible etc It’s kind of that thing it’s like i like Agencies if you don’t scale them as a Way to Essentially raise money for your Projects because That can be quite good and it’s as i Mentioned for the story of eric for Example it’s not that hard to get to Five figures quite quickly And if you’re there and then you leave With like two and a half thousand Dollars and you’re making ten thousand Then you have a lot of cash to invest And and provided you have Some energy left after you’ve been Running your agency then then The opportunity is high if you have some Capacity of doing work Coupled with quite decent money then You might make faster progress than if You did not have that agency and worked Full-time on your sites While also getting some security and Building an asset that Even if it’s sold for multiple can be Sold later once you don’t need it

Anymore so It’s something to consider to be honest You do have to be very disciplined If you’re following that approach Because it’s very easy just to fall into The I’ll start my sites next year i’ll just Keep doing this for a little bit longer And then Before you know what you’ve been doing Your agency for Five years and you’re like actually Never really made the leap over to Running your own size i wish we stopped Our agency two years earlier i think two Two years would have been enough um and Yeah well we’ll be two years ahead today Um that’s that’s my opinion so four Years was a bit too long i’m sure we Acquired some experience from these Extra two years that You know we don’t regret but yeah it’s It’s kind of like business school right I did four years of business school Honestly if If it was done properly in one year it Was done yeah it’s like it’s a so i wish I wish i just got my three years back Here as well um So anyway that’s basically it for this Podcast guys i hope you enjoyed it if You did Don’t forget to go on youtube and like It

Uh also subscribe and click on the Notification bell and also answer the Question of the week which is going to Be Have you ever worked in an agency Environment are you considering doing That if you’re beginner something like This Considering any of the tips we gave on Like having an agency to start and so on What is your opinion on that drop us the Comment on youtube and we are reading All of them we don’t always come to Time to reply to all of them but we read All of them you can also listen to this Podcast on all the audio platforms so Wherever you get your podcast you can Find us authority hacker And we hope you enjoyed this podcast and We’ll see you next week [Music] You