With the recession looming over us have You ever thought should i be selling my Website now while it’s still making Money in this video i’m going to Interview justin cook founder of empire Flippers the largest curated marketplace For online businesses empire flippers Has helped sell over 1 500 content Websites this includes both websites Making affiliate revenue or display ad Revenue or a combination of both and i’m About to absolutely grill him on all the Insider information on what it takes to Really succeed in this content website Seo game and most importantly where this Industry is going over the years i’ve Gotten to know justin fairly well to Spice up this interview i’m gonna plant Some light-hearted personal questions in There to try to trip him up let’s see if I get him now on to the interview Justin man thanks so much for coming on Why don’t we kick things off just for Describing where you’re from and what Did you end up doing post high school Yeah buddy so i’m originally from California um grew up in california went To school there And you know shortly after high school Joined the navy so i was one of those Guys wasn’t sure what i want to do need To figure it out ended up joining the Navy and was in the navy for six years Um was stationed in san diego
And you know it started my love of Travel right we went on you know two Different west packs which means you Know west pacific you you know get to Tour the gulf and yeah they went to South pack and i traveled a lot and that Kind of got my travel bug started and That’s kind of you know why you know Years later i find myself traveling Quite a bit Nice we’re actually like on a boat Moving around yes different points yeah I was on a destroyer uh Dd972 it’s the uss oldendorf we were Part of a battle group going to the Middle east and you know doing uh You know interventions there we did uh We pulled over like pulled over We targeted ships that were um exporting Things from iraq like illegal stuff like Dates and whatever you know happened to Be illegal at the time and we ended up You know pulling over those ships Basically in the in international waters And you know holding them down until uh They’d be dealt with yeah wow man so how Do you transition from being a pirate Hunter over to working online Yeah so After the navy i wasn’t sure what i was Gonna want to do you know i thought Maybe homeland security i mean that’s a Typical job for people getting out of The military
Um and then you know i went to school uh Ended up going to college and while i Was in school you know i had a buddy That was into uh the mortgage business And said look you know there’s a lot of Money being made right now in real Estate and this is like 2003 2004 And so i joined him and started doing Mortgages right started helping people Refinance their homes get home loans Uh and this is my current business Partner joe magnoni so he was you know Doing that and got me into it and we Ended up setting up a real estate or Mortgage company together through 2004 Until the financial crisis in 2008. Okay Well we all know how that went so i Guess you pivoted from that into Creating empire flippers or How did that end up working yeah you Don’t we know each other personally but You don’t know some of this backstory Right yeah so In in 2008 uh you know after our Business our real estate business our Mortgage company had failed pretty badly We had to look for jobs so joe was Playing poker and just kind of like Grinding out the poker tables and i went To go look for work and i end up working For a local seo company Out of southern california and so
Working for the seo company um I was working there for maybe six months And joe was still playing poker and i Was like hey you should come work at This company they’re doing some Interesting stuff He came to work over there uh with me at The company and you know we started Working our way up in that company Uh through our previous business we had Had some experience hiring virtual Assistants in the philippines and this Is before odesk or upwork or any of that And we said look we’ve got some Experience We think we can you know hire we were Hiring like crazy and we said look we Were mid-level managers of this company So look we think we have a connection The philippines we can hire and get some Offshore labor that can you know do the Job or do the work that we need done for Much cheaper and so that’s kind of how We got into sourcing a lot of the work We were doing at the local seo company Offshore Nice nice And so i guess you learned your seo Skills at that point and then started Making your own websites Well i would say seo skills are uh i Mean i’m talking to like you know Regular seo guys so i mean our seo Skills were pretty lacking like we
Worked for an seo company but didn’t Really have seo chops enough to like get Some basic ranking done and keep in mind This is like now 2010 like 2009 2010 so ranking was super Easy back then Um so yeah you know we learned a bit About seo And you know we you know kept Outsourcing this work overseas Eventually joe and i left that company And started an outsourcing company out Of the philippines and so we still Worked with that previous employer they Were now you know one of our clients and We were looking to add more While we were doing that and in the Process of moving over to the Philippines and getting our office set Up and starting to like scale up and Hire you know take on new clients they Started cutting back on us significantly So they would you know cut people and we Had this contract that we thought was Stable and secure and it wasn’t so Stable and secure when they started Cutting back and we were like you know Got a bit pretty bad spot because we Would add a new client and lose a whole Bunch of people on that other contract And so We were like what do we do When they finally got rid of us at the End of 2010
We’re like what are we going to do with All these people we have that we’re Working on their project so look we got To figure something out right or they’re Going to be unemployed and we have to Let them go so we tried a few different Things one of them being creating niche Websites getting them ranking on google And putting adsense on them and so you Know we started this off creating these Small niche ad signs that would make Adsense sites that make you know 10 Bucks a month or 20 bucks a month or 40 Bucks a month and started cranking those Out with our team in the philippines Okay and then how did you end up Deciding to sell them weren’t you called Like adsense flippers at one point yeah So we were at some slippers originally Um We’d put money into you know building This team up and and uh or just paying The team that we already had and Creating the content and doing some of The work buying the domains or whatever And you know we reached a point at which We were like look we can continue to put More money into this Um you know i think we’re into for ten Thousand bucks or something and maybe We’re making like 700 bucks a month or 800 bucks a month we’re like we can put More money into this or like is there Any way to like realize these gains and
So what we realized is that we could Sell off these small sites a site Earning 100 bucks a month if we could Sell that for two or three thousand Dollars we can then take that two or Three thousand dollars and reinvest it Into creating more sites so rather than Coming more out of pocket we can just Keep reinvesting and like let it Snowball right and so that was the plans Like look let’s sell off some sites Snowball the the business and really Like scale up this niche site creation So that’s what we did and we got to the Point where we’re creating You know Dozens maybe not not quite 100 sites a Week we’re creating 50 60 sites a week Really cranking them out All right so Let’s talk about the rise of empire Flippers i particularly remember being a Moment being at a nightclub in phuket And then seeing on the lcd screen Congrats empire flippers for making the Inc 500 and i was just thinking to Myself damn these guys are moving fast What has that rise been like for from Your perspective Yeah it’s been wild i remember when that Happened we made the Inc 500 list and uh one of our marketing Guys got to put on there i didn’t even Know that we were getting it on the
Screen so that was pretty cool when uh When he did that for us but um yeah so We were very fast you know growing Company and and we hit a lot of bumps Along the way um I’ll say one of the things that’s been Interesting about the path is that a lot Of our kind of things that we figured Out or things that went well for us were Because Our customers asked for it and they Asked for it so many times we eventually Kind of went along with it does that Make any sense like for example um you Know we didn’t allow Uh other people to sell their sites on Our platform originally it was adsense Flippers we were selling our own little Websites to our own audience and people Came to say look hey i have a site on Adsense side or amazon associates site i Want to sell with you can i sell it and We were like no way because we make all Of our money selling our own sites like Why would we cannibalize our own Business and people asked a bunch of Times and eventually we were like oh Maybe this is a smart idea maybe there’s Enough people out there wanting to sell Their sites and there’s enough room for People buying sites that will buy sites That aren’t just ours and so our whole Reason for brokering was due to You know us being kind of stubborn and
Rejecting it but enough of our customers Or you know readers like Kept requesting it that we finally said Okay we’ll try it out I love it awesome man and so what what Is empire flippers looking like now do You got a sense of the head count and Maybe you even know how much your Business is worth at this point Yeah so that’s interesting you know we Went from you know Joe and i in the philippines with our Kind of philippines crew to like hiring A few apprentices and bringing them Halfway around the world to kind of like Work with us and they lived in a Townhouse with us from the early days to Now we have over 75 people um throughout The world we’ve got some people in south America europe united states Um And last year we did About 15 million in top line revenue Um a little over a bit over five million Dollars in ebitda our profit So i mean yeah our business probably Worth in that i mean depends on what Multiple you give it probably in the 40 To 60 million dollar range today Amazing thing you’ve done we’ll talk More about that later like what that What that means in this community i mean Oh forget it we’ll talk about it right Now i think it’s it’s quite the
Accomplishment because the world that we Live in is like this digital nomad type World The dynamite circle and stuff like that I think the For someone to create a real business With hr team Distributed companies 70 employees That’s pretty rare in this world so I think that’s quite the accomplishment To take it to that level Do you like the transition of going from Like a scrappy internet business to like A full-fledged corporation No is that a fair answer not not as much I mean i i like the scrappy Um the scrappy business is more fun Right but you make a lot more money with The larger businesses and so you know What we’ve tried to do is to keep this Kind of smaller feel while we grow and So there’s a constant Resistance to that there’s a push toward Being more corporate and so you know we Feel that both from people on the Management team but also from people Outside from customers or from our team You know what they have different needs And different things as we get larger And have you know more robust kind of Crew and kind of what they need and want For you know to work with us and so yeah I mean it’s a bit challenging trying to Keep the scrappy
Fun-loving kind of party work hard play Hard um You know attitude and feel and vibe While still you know growing up a bit as A company and so that’s been a bit Challenging it’s it’s um there are parts Of it that aren’t as fun as it was in The kind of earlier days um and there Are other parts that are maybe um maybe More fun because you know as we kind of Like grow we get to develop our Management team and kind of help them And you know hone their skills with Their crew and Help them understand kind of why we do The things we do and what our intuitions Say about you know how we’re making Decisions so there’s some fun aspects There that i i that we weren’t doing Four or five years ago Sure sure fair enough fair enough i want To shift gears to talking about Selling bus selling businesses selling Online businesses And i know you guys sell pretty much Everything i mean you do a lot of fba Sas And everything but my audience is Particularly interested in content Websites that are monetized with Affiliate marketing or display ads so I’m gonna i’m gonna hone in on that Section but first i got a very important Question since we’re talking about work
Hard play hard which city has the best Nightlife in the world God best nightlife that’s a tough one Man I mean bangkok’s pretty good bangkok’s Pretty good as you know quite well um Yeah i’d say bangkok’s probably my Favorite city to party in for sure what About you what do you think okay Ah i might have to agree but ho chi minh Is not that bad either Is not bad yeah i like i like saigon Bangkok and saigon are up there for sure Yeah manila manila is okay yeah he asked Joe he’d probably say manola but i think Bangkok Got it got it okay All right my first question Regarding selling websites is why would You ever sell a website if you got a Website making 10 dollars a month you’re Barely working on it why wouldn’t you Want ten thousand dollars a month Yeah so um There’s a whole bunch of reasons right Some of them are Um Cynical some of them are positive some Of them are there’s all kinds of reasons People sell um one of the cynical ones Would be you know from a seller’s Perspective they’ve got it as Um Perfect and as monetized as they can get
It like it literally they’re like it Can’t get any better i might as well Sell at the top right they’re like it Can only go down from here it’s kind of Their perspective so i got it up to ten Thousand dollars a month maybe i get ten Five or eleven but that’s as good as It’s getting and then you have on the Other the other end of it you have People that are buying or acquiring Websites and online businesses that look At it and go it’s just now at the point Where like i it has enough traffic and Enough monetization for me to play with And really get in and improve it add 50 60 over the next you know 12 18 months So you have this disconnect from what a Seller thinks right This is maxed out it’s not gonna make Any more money and a buyer going it’s Finally big enough for me to care or get You know what i mean so that’s a um That’s how we’re able to do business is Because those two don’t see eye to eye But there’s a whole lot of other reasons People sell so we’ve had people sub Because they needed money they were Looking to um adopt a kid And so that can be quite expensive uh We’ve had people sell because they’re Going through divorce Right and so they need to cash out um We’ve had people sell for you know the Partnership disputes which can get
Really ugly um So it’s not always about just like Trying to time the market and get the Most value out of the sale sometimes It’s life events that pop up Sure well i also think some important Ones from my side of the quad is De-risking right so i use seo and google Is finicky so you can de-risk and get Collect all that money right now There are other there are other people That do this regularly like they build Up sites and then they get kind of bored With it i’m sure you felt this too where It’s just like you just don’t care about It anymore you’re not that interested in And maybe you’re good at building up Sites but you’re not good at kind of Like maintaining them long term that’s Just not of interest to you and so you Sell it off and and it finds a new home And they can take it from there Right and i also like what you alluded To before about the snowball effect Right you sell one business now you have A huge Chunk of cash now make five of those and That’s when you start to help all out of Control yeah a fair amount of our Sellers end up selling uh a site and Then maybe they sell another one or Another one and they turn into buyers So you know they build up a nice little Uh war chest and they start looking at
Sites for sale and they go You know i can Improve the hell out of the site like i Can make a lot more money they’re not Doing a very good job on monetization or Traffic strategies i can make a lot more Money with this one than they’re making So i’m gonna pick this one up so a lot Of sellers not all but a lot of sellers End up being buyers Got it got it so how do you figure out How much a website it’s worth when you Evaluate a website when someone comes to Your marketplace they got the site Making ten thousand a month how do you How do you figure out how much to sell For That’s tough because uh you know Everyone says wow science only worth What someone’s willing to pay for it and That’s 100 true they’re absolutely right About that but you have to have some way Of determining What someone’s going to pay for it so You don’t uh ridiculously under-price it Or over-value it and aren’t able to sell The business and so you know we’ve Looked at a lot of the deals we’ve done Over a very long period of time And made a bunch of determinations on Where we think the value is based on Where people are buying where people are Making offers so we create a valuation Tool that takes a lot of those things
Into account and they can be tweaked and Adjusted over time based on what the Current market says now we don’t always Get it right right there are sites i Think we’ve sold they’re probably a Little lower than they should have been Sold for other sites that sold maybe for More i mean we had a buyer that really Wanted one so there’s you know there’s An adjustment a bit but we’re pretty Close in terms of valuation um and we Also have things like we have a typical Range on the valuation and absolute Range typical being where maybe 70 80 Percent of the businesses are gonna fall Absolute being for the real kind of Outliers and so we use that kind of Framework Uh when discussing it now what’s it Based on i’m sure you know some people Watching it’s like well what’s that how Does that work it’s going to be a Multiple on top of your net profit so The way we do it is we talk about Monthly net profit so if you look over For example the last you know 12 months And your business has been making let’s Say 10 000 a month on average some Months eight some months is 14 you’ve Got a 10 000 net profit on average we’re Going to apply multiple to that business On a monthly multiple so probably be Somewhere between you know 28 to 40 Times right so that business would sell
Somewhere between 280 and 400 000 in Most cases now there’d be some that Might sell as low as 24 there’d be some That might sell as high as 46 or 48 Depending but most are going to fall in That typical range Got it okay So we have the profit side of the Equation and we have the multiplier in Terms of the profit so that’s revenue Minus the expenses what gets filed under Expenses because i know that’s a Point of contention among sellers like If i’m creating content and backlinks That goes with the asset so should that Be considered an expense i don’t think It should Typically we don’t so we don’t include Content expenses we will include Anything that’s ongoing and recurring um So if you had some initial kind of like Seeding expenses for content we don’t Count that as an expense now here here’s The thing you can count it or not count It but ultimately it’s gonna be whether The buyer wants to count it whether you Buy their argument right so we have we Use that as a framework the you know Here’s the net profit here’s where the Net profit is based on here’s the Multiple but that’s a framework for Discussion between the seller and buyers So they’re both coming at it from the Same you know the same kind of argument
It really kind of keeps uh some of the Negativity out of it my site’s worth More you know sellers can get really Personal with their business you know For good reason right but they they’re Like You know it’s almost like like it’s Affecting like you know the value that They have or something they feel Weird about it um so using a framework It really helps to like separate it from Yourself Um so really you know if the buyer is Not accepting the argument that um Content cost shouldn’t be included then That’s always going to be a negotiation Sure sure So walk us through the process of Selling a website let’s say someone’s Selling their first website what does Step one two three and four generally Look like Yeah so typically you’re gonna go to Empireflippers.com and you’re gonna Submit your site to potentially sell With us and we’re going to ask you a Whole bunch of questions about the Business and then we’re going to go Through what we call the vetting process And so we’re going to take a look we Have a whole team of people that will do This that will review the business make Sure everything kind of lines up with Kind of what you’ve stated uh will help
You build out the p l and just kind of Like work through the financials and Then once that’s good to go we’ll have Our marketing team work on the write up And start preparing for listing and then Assuming you approve and everything’s um You know good to go then we’ll launch it We list new websites every monday So every monday we’re putting up a swath Of new listings and then we send that Out to our audience and we constantly Are marketing Individual listings and groups of Listings to You know through our podcast through our Email list through social media To get each of the listings a bit more Attention and and views once your Business is listed Depending on kind of what the size of The business is we have different levels But you know we’ll have people that are Reviewing the listing and they can what We call unlock a listing and so a buyer Is able to unlock the listing if they’ve Proven uh their financial capability so If we know they have the money they’ve Proven us they have the money to buy the Particular site and they’ll be allowed To unlock the listing and review the Detailed information rather than kind of Hidden public info For the larger businesses they’ll Actually be able to set up a buyer
Seller call and that’s a guided Moderated call with someone from empire Flippers where they will walk the buyer And the seller through the process They’ll typically do kind of a prep call With a seller tell them what to expect Do the call with the buyer and the Seller and then do a follow-up call with The seller and say hey here’s what we Think went well here’s what to expect Next and help negotiate kind of through The process so assuming the buyer seller Call went well there’s an offer made We’ll help the seller kind of like go Through whether they should accept it or Counter and then you know once the deal Is done then we help them migrate the Business and we have a whole team that Helps people migrate the business from You know the seller to the buyer make Sure that you know everything’s been Transferred over and and then complete The transaction Got it so full concierge service from Start to finish That’s right it’s a little different Than some of our competitors so You know most people will you know Obviously list the business for you not All uh people will vet the business so Go through and make sure that the Earnings are there that it passes um our Standards some are just auto approved um And then we do migrations uh which is
Where we transfer the business for you Instead of leaving it up to the buyer And seller we found that to be Helpful and valuable um Not always the smoothest process but um That definitely separates us from the Competition i think Got it got it Tell me if this is a hallucination or This this is real for some reason Whenever i sell a site that is making Less than 199 000 they sell Almost instantly it happens right away As soon as i get into the 200 000 and Above range just We’re looking at months and there’s earn Outs involved like is that a real thing Or is this just my random experience You’re not wrong although i’d say it’s Probably closer to the 300 dollar range But yeah you’re you’re right in that There is a there is a dollar amount Where There’s less people with that kind of Cash ready to buy right so hundred Hundred thousand dollar site hundred Fifty thousand dollar site twenty Thousand our site people cash up ready Go even in the 250 range you get to Three or 350 and it’s like the number of People ready and cashed up to buy a site With cash at that level drop Significantly so i’d say you know i like To say in the 300 000 to like a million
Or maybe even 1.5 that range that 300 000 to 1.5 million Is a kind of a no man’s land it’s it’s It’s harder to sell Um and it’s really because of the size The amount of cash you have to have for The deal now above 1.5 there’s plenty of Like Like low end or smaller private equity Groups there’s like investor groups There’s like you know groups of people That are willing to buy those businesses But you’re really in a weird spot for 300 to 1.5 so you’re going to be you’re Looking at earn outs there’s going to be Some more negotiation it’s harder to Find the buyers it’s actually one of the Reasons we started ef capital was from An empire flippers perspective we were Like look if we can get you know more Help to buy those like four five six Seven hundred thousand dollar businesses That’ll help us but there’s also a gap Whereas if you can put that money Together with a couple of investors or With the group or if you’re targeting That four or five six hundred thousand Dollar range then you can get value Right because they’re more willing to Take negotiations they’re more willing To take earn outs so i i feel like you Can get better value from a buyer in That 250 300 000 range up to the 1.2 1.5 Million dollar range wow that’s a pretty
Cool insight so would you say in this no Man’s land the multiples dip down a Little bit Um i don’t think that i have to check on That i only the data proves that out in Terms of multiple you would think so um I don’t think it does i just think that There’s less buyers um Yeah i don’t know i’m not sure i don’t Think it does though i don’t think the Multiple does so i have to leave that You just The buyer the sellers just might it Takes longer and it’s harder to find Yeah it takes longer it’s harder to find Maybe the sell-through rate is lower But it definitely takes longer than they Than the smaller uh businesses for sure Okay cool Um What’s the biggest content website You’ve ever sold that’s the most the Biggest paycheck for our seller of an Affiliate or display outside Yeah so we’ve sold you know amazon fba Businesses 10 million plus We’ve sold other e-commerce and the 4-5 Million the biggest content site is 1.8 Million And that was in the Um crypto niche so we sold a 1.8 million Deal there and uh A number right below that so on the 1.3 1.4 1.5 1.6
Range we’ve done a number of others as Well Yeah okay cool I got a health fitness website currently Evaluated about 2.5 so we’ll be making a Conversation soon nice yeah we we do That What’s this i’m looking at the data Right now we’ve got a health site we Sold for 1.4 And we’ve got one in the pet niche for 1.1 Um Yeah yeah yeah But a whole bunch between like 500 and 1.2 Sure sure What should sellers do when preparing For an exit you you’ve decided you’re Going to sell a site you’re going to go List with empire flippers what do you Need to do to get your affairs in order Uh just One thing you should know is that it’s Going to be based on uh your sales price Be based on a multiple of net profit and So you know in the six months leading up To even the 12 months leading up to Particularly the last six you’re going To want to be very mindful of additional Expenses maybe cut back on that Exploratory marketing right maybe cut Back on the things you’re doing that are Kind of like maybe growing the business
But you’re not really sure stick the Things you know are actually working um Now the reason is look you can always Try to drop or cut those costs i’m Trying to say look you know i i don’t Want them I don’t want to take a hit for those on My ebitda or my profit but you’re gonna Have buyers that say no no no throw this Back in so it’s gonna be a negotiation Right if they’re there so be mindful of That um also make sure that you’ve got Your financials right Now when we’re building out the p l’s With you we help you do that and get you Up and running but you there is gonna be Some work you’re gonna have to do Uh to go back and kind of look at the Expenses and the revenue over the last 12 months you’re going to want to make Sure you get that right because you know If you If the numbers are off or wrong or You’re constantly going back and fixing That it looks really bad from a buyer’s Perspective and you might have a buyer That was on the hook ready to buy your 800 000 site and it just go you know What it’s a little off it just seems a Little fishy i’m going to pass and you Know it wouldn’t be crazy for them to do That because we actually tell buyers to Do that if it’s off the numbers aren’t Matching this there’s something wrong
There it might be time to move on Sure sure is there anything you can do To maximize the multiple i got this Question from someone in the community That thought well it’s quite quite clear That a buyer would be more interested in Buying a business that is fully Automated but in order to automate You’re hiring staff you’re buying some Software and getting all the there’s a Cost to that which is going to lower Your average monthly profit so Does that pay off in a higher multiple Yeah it typically does How much and is it really worth doing Like that’s the real question right and Like that’s a tough one to answer What i will say is that heading into A you know financial Much more challenging financial uh Winter i guess you could say It’s gonna help a lot to Have your business automated just from a Sellability perspective so it’s not just About like you know can i get a better Multiple it’s can i sell my business at All in the economic climate and so You’re going to want to be better than The next guy right you don’t want to be The fastest gazelle but you got to be Fashion the one right behind you that’s Uh that applies here as well so if You’re a bit more automated you have Your uh eyes dotted and your t’s crossed
More than the next guy That’s gonna make you a more attractive Target for selling at all um so a lot of Times it comes down to not really just Multiple but whether your business is Sellable Interesting all right Here’s another one Is gregory l frank the nerdiest guy in Empire flippers because he not only Plays dutchess and dragons but he’s an Actual dungeon master so yeah the Dungeon master nerdy’s got i don’t know Man we’re a bunch of nerds in empire Flavors i mean that’s the honest truth We’re all kind of internet geeks and Dorks and and that’s kind of how we roll We have a lot of fun together but um Yeah man we’re we’re all kind of in the Same boat greg may be king of the nerds I don’t know you have to ask him All right shout out to greg Let’s talk about niches do buyers prefer To buy niche sites or authority sites I mean that’s a it’s a funny word right It’s kind of a semantics game um Typically authority sites right the Stronger a site is uh the more authority It has in terms of like content the Backlinks i mean it’s going to be Helpful And again you know it matters even more Kind of heading into the financial Climate we’re heading into you you want
To avoid or buyers typically be more Likely to avoid Um The smaller very niche down site than The kind of larger authority site that That might be viewed as less risky Yeah i guess the definition should be Niche site would be single topic table Saws where authority site would be Multi-topic home improvement something Like that What it depends like you’re from a Buyer’s perspective right can the niche Be expanded right is it like domain Limited is it just uh You know content limited or can it be Expanded beyond what it’s currently About right so that’s gonna be and That’s not even like can it be done but Does a buyer think they can do it right So it’s not just whether it’s doable but Whether they think it’s due a volume so A lot goes in there but yeah i mean i Say in general an authority site with a Broader topic that’s found success is Going to be more valuable So you touched upon this like evergreen Website topics are going to be the ones To target in a recession the ones to go After no one No one needs a golf rangefinder to Survive when their paycheck isn’t secure Going forward do you have any insights Into like what kind of
Evergreen website topics that people That buyers typically like Yeah i mean you know one of the things That does quite well and and we’ve sold Quite a few are the things that maybe You’re less comfortable You know um Asking your friends or family about so Maybe that could be Medical related Um In some cases i don’t want to get like Too specific right um but there are uh Cases where Uh you know like your The the information is very uh very Niche and like the person writing the Content clearly knows what they’re Talking about and is passionate about The subject so i’ll just say like men’s Fashion right so like there’s so much to Be said about like men’s fashion so People like dig way into that topic and Like pair this match this with this and And so like people are way into this Like that’s gonna um do quite well and Buyers are interested in that if they Have a passion for that topic right Rather than just kind of like a general Affiliate type site Nice nice uh by the way for the viewers If you haven’t seen the study that i did Before with empire flippers so we Did a data study on all the websites all
The content websites they’ve sold since The point of the analysis since day one And looked at it from the perspective of What’s the best roi niches to get into Meaning the minimum amount of content And backlinks you put into it and the Maximum amount of revenue so go ahead And check out that video thanks ef for Supplying that data If you were to build a website right now You’re going back to your your seo days And you plan to sell this website in Three years which niche do you think it Would go for It’s a good question i mean One of the issues i see doing really Well right now are um sites and Businesses around remote work Um and something i’m passionate about I’m interested in as well so it might be Something around that something kind of Highlighting remote work you know we Have our our buddies over at dynamite Circle that have dynamite jobs i think That’s quite uh quite an interesting Niche to be in um so that’d be fun i Think that’d be a fun thing to do um i Know peter levels does something uh has Some some businesses in that space as Well um it’s good and there are private Equity groups uh looking to buy Um there as well i’ve spoken to a few Groups so looking for those types of Businesses now will that still be as
Popular in two or three years well That’s the question i i think probably Um but yeah that’s that’s where i’d be Spending some time it seems like that’s Where the direction is going i mean i Think so the model was proven to work It was it was happening before kovid Before the pandemic but uh but even more So now i think it’s just accelerated the Model right and so there’s way more kind Of talk about it um there’s a lot more Kind of job seeking There and a lot of people that are more Open to getting out there and traveling And seeing the world so yeah Yeah I encourage the viewers to just plug in Any of those keywords remote work Digital nomad into google trends and see What the trend graph looks like that’s That’s always a good tip for deciding What niche to get into if it’s trending Up because even if you don’t grow you’re Going to grow Yeah you’re riding the uh All you know what is a rising tide lifts All boats kind of thing that’s true Right right Is it true that your business partner Joe likes packages Does he like packages Yeah i think he likes practices he likes To mail himself back just do you i don’t Know what you use matt we use um a thing
Called earth class mail Are you familiar with this okay i’m Being literally I’m talking about listening to a podcast With you guys and uh There’s something uh like joe was saying Like oh we’re we’re now selling a Website package of three different sites And you know how much i love packaging Dude you were digging into that bro that Was a long time ago yes God no i was thinking i was thinking Literally um But anyway yeah no we used to sell Packages of sites we don’t really do That anymore that’s when we were selling Our our own Sites and packages and we would uh we’d Package the smaller sites together you Know like a bunch of 100 a month earners Into a thousand dollar a month package And sell those off just because it was Kind of more convenient we were able to Target a larger group we didn’t do that Much anymore although I will say we do sell sites or Businesses that have other domains Associated so an e-commerce business That’s part fba Part uh direct consumer With some affiliate sites kind of Leading in it’s more of a business than Just a site so yeah we sell packages in That sense i guess and joe likes those
Yeah Okay good good just make sure Um what are some deals what are some Reasons that deals might fall through Like you you touched upon before like if Someone completely messes up their p l That doesn’t look good But what else Yeah so um we’ve had situations and this Is pretty these are pretty rare less Than ten percent of all deals we do end Up falling out um So i’d say maybe closer to you know five Percent ish um but they fall for a Number of reasons we’ve had situations Where Um the seller was the seller Yeah the um seller was selling their Business and then the buyer refused to Send the money up front and And uh uh you know wouldn’t do that Wanted no no sorry Reverse so the seller was would only Take the money up front before they Handed anything over and so we’re like Look buyer you can’t do this like There’s no you absolutely and they were Like look i think i trust her i think It’s okay we’re like no we won’t do the Deal um buyer is really really happy That uh we kept him from the deal into Buying another one from us but he was he Was like thinking about like whether he Should send the money direct to the
Seller or like don’t do it so in a Situation like that um The deals drop out we also have an Inspection period So you know if the buyer buys a content Site and in the two weeks Um Leading up or like after you know it’s Been migrated if the site doesn’t have Earnings that are um 50 or more of what They’re supposed to be um then either We’ll extend the inspection period uh We’ll renegotiate the deal or we’ll Cancel the deal completely so we’ve done Renegotiations we’ve had to extend to Make sure it hit the 50 percent things Like that Got it got it Really we’re protecting the buyer from From lemons and sellers obviously don’t Like it i mean to somebody they’re like Hey look i just i want to get my money Um but we want to have as safe a Marketplace as possible we want to avoid The lemon problem we want to avoid like We have a whole bunch of checks that we Run sellers through to avoid scammers And scams But that’s kind of a good final check Too um so we have a whole bunch of Things to help protect the buyers and That’s one of the reasons we have so Many buyers on our platform because People know like and trust you know our
Process Sure sure Now i didn’t want to give you all Softballs during this interview so i Have a bit of a challenging question From you for you uh i heard some chatter About empire flippers struggling with Migrations like some errors being Created when transferring one domain From one person to another have you Heard about any troubles in this regard And is this something you guys are Working on Yeah so that’s our migration process and I mentioned this earlier um we’re unique In that i think we’re one of the only Brokerages that offer migrations where We actually do the migration from this Law to the buyer And years ago we’ve we’ve had trouble Living this reputation down and i think It was a Fairly frankly deserved reputation where We didn’t always do the best job um at Migrations right um We stuck with it because it is so Valuable for buyers sometimes one party Like either the seller or the buyer is Much more familiar with the process than The other and it can cause all kinds of Issues just leaving it between them to Figure out and so we’ve stuck with it Even with the challenges even though our Competitors don’t do it because it is so
Valuable for buyers and sellers now Have people been frustrated the process Yes have we made some mistakes along the Way yes um but i think we’ve improved Significantly over the last year or two Um and it’s something we’re still Working on not only do we not get as Many complaints as we did Um Years ago uh we get people that are you Know very happy that we’re able to Provide as a service at all so yeah Things got a lot better there Right and and in your defense i mean i Think people need to back up and just Look at how complicated a migration Process is you not only need to switch The affiliate links from um on the on The all the affiliate links that our Website has but you need to sign up for All those individual affiliate programs And sometimes you don’t get accepted Especially if you have no history with That network so you guys are taking care And all that and that’s that’s a reason Why i go with brokerages like yours is Because I don’t want to do that myself it sounds Terrible i don’t want to do that it’s a Pain and then other other people don’t Know how to or or they they they are Nervous about i mean not everyone you Know people don’t sell their websites or Their businesses their babies every day
And so because of something we do Regularly like we’re way more suited to Be able to help with that now are there Challenges are there issues that come up Yes but you know part of the reason you Have an intermediary is because you know We care about doing the right thing for The buyer and the seller and take taking Care of both of them and sometimes the Best thing to do is to have them both a Little annoyed and that’s that’s the the The frank truth is that they’re both Gonna be a little annoyed um no one’s Super happy about it but we still help Them both get the deal done and that’s That’s our job Fair enough fair enough okay let’s Switch gears to talking about buying Sites but first i have an import Important question from the community In the movie point blank what did johnny Utah order during the stakeout Dude i have no idea we were talking About point blank i had to look this one Up i think it’s a chilly dog i know this Is super important but all right Critical critically important yeah Mission critical um why would you ever Buy a website uh i did some math and i Figured out the the cheapest website you Can buy from empire flippers is twenty Two thousand dollars that’s no No uh penny right you that’s a decent Chunk of cash like why wouldn’t you just
Build that website Yourself uh people do Right so there’s lots of people that Don’t buy from us uh and they prefer to Build themselves particularly people Just starting off So Um if you are just starting off and you Don’t have much cash let’s say that’s You know everything you’ve kind of saved Up or you kind of worked your way up to That 22 000 you probably shouldn’t spend It on buying a site um you know take 1500 bucks and use that to build out a Site from scratch build out a few right Is my recommendation But you do get to the point where it’s Like you know if you can skip These six months or 12 months or 18 Months it can take to get past the same Box to get up and rank to get make sure There’s product market fit to make sure You pick select the right keywords to Make sure you’re selecting the right Niche that there’s some like monetary Intent monetary interest like all these Things and you can skip past that and Just go with the ones that have already Met all that criteria and then kind of Like scale them up like that’s just a Better bang for your buck right so if You’re good enough at seo and you’ve got The cash why start from scratch anymore When you can buy something already and
Like spin those out right and make them A lot better faster stronger make them More profitable That’s i 100 agree with that so i was Just looking at some of the Website purchases and sales that i’ve Done with df And Excuse me so one side i bought from you Guys for 45 dollars right and i ended up Selling that site for six hundred fifty Thousand dollars right and so that that Website when i purchased it was a year Old now that’s the same thing as saying Me i can collect 650 000 a year sooner Right that’s just mathematically that Works out better for me and to touch Upon what you said You get to you get to buy something That’s proven it’s generating money and You know that this website’s going to Rank sometimes the sandbox can be tricky You rank in three months where you make Rank in two years so you cut out that Whole uncertainty phase right then and There and i didn’t definitely It just depends on like the size right Size matters to you so like you know you May have um Uh you know a 40 50 000 website purchase May not move the needle at a certain Point because you’re like even if i 5x That it’s that’s not worth it to me Right i’m at a another level so i if i’m
Not buying it two under 300 000 It just doesn’t matter i don’t get out Of bed for that and that’s kind of a i Don’t know super privileged thing to say It’s not worth my time to buy any less Than 200 000 but it’s true right so as You kind of move up the value chain or Value tree like doing the smaller deals Doesn’t even make sense so you start to Do larger and larger deals um aside from Just building or buying that you start Buying a larger too Yeah yeah what would you recommend People look for when they’re buying a Website What do you look for i mean there’s There’s a lot of things right so um I mean typically you want to stay with Something you know i mean we’re talking Specifically content sites so you know Maybe you want to stay away from the Kindle ebook businesses or the amazon Fba if you’ve never run an ecom or an Fba business um stick with what you know Um Yeah i mean i look for sites where i Have some like uh Expertise that other people don’t Typically have so for example let’s say I’m just mentioning a niche uh like a uh There’s a guy that sold one there’s a Uh bass fishing right and so like i Particularly just say i know bass Fishing really really well i know what
Kind of trawlers you use i know what Kind of boats you use i know what kind Of motors you use so like it’s it’s of Interest to me i’m interested in buying That because i know it super well and i Can pair products you know amazon Associate type products um really really Well because i know which motor goes Which trawler which goes which whatever Right and so yeah i look for sites or Businesses around which i know really Well and have a competitive advantage With I Hate amazon associates as an affiliate Program i just don’t like how they Treated people in the past and yeah they Have 200 000 of mine That they just seized and never paid out So You must see amazon sites being sold all The time so from your perspective do you Still think amazon is worth going into Yeah um Amazon can be a tricky partner right as You know Um One of the things we saw this a lot in 2021 2020 but heavily in 2021 is that You know there were a whole lot of Aggregators And this is on the fba side but amazon Related a whole lot of aggregators Swallowing up the seven and eight figure
Fba businesses and other e-commerce dtc Type businesses And you know they were taking advantage Of the fact that a lot of sellers were Nervous about amazon and like you know Like you said before like there’s some Risk right when you’re with amazon or When you’re dealing with google traffic Or whatever and so the sellers were Looking to get out But these buyers these aggregators had x Amazon people working at them they knew That um you know they were On solid ground and so they were willing To spend the money to build up these Much much larger Private equity groups and aggregator Groups So i mean there’s always you know where One person’s fearful another is greedy And that tends to work out well for the Greedy um so i think we saw a lot of That going on in 2021 so i know now that Being said i know you got burned with Amazon and so it’s not just you being Fearful of amazon as you being probably Pissed at amazon um But i know other people are making a Hell of a lot of money with them still So you know Fair enough more power to him Um look let’s talk about where you think This industry is going so We got this recession on our hands
Uh most likely This is my primary income source so i’m Super curious on where this whole thing Is going but first i got a super Important question is it normal for a Grown man to enjoy some nitrous oxide Time I think that’s not appropriate i think It’s uh well maybe maybe a little bit Appropriate that’s very common in Vietnam as you all know yeah nitrous is The Balloons okay but on a serious note what Are multiples at right now and where do You think they’re headed Yeah so multiples probably in the 30 to 40 x range Right now A little higher a little lower depending Um Where multiples are going is really Going to depend so You know in the fba space i’d say They’re going down I’d say multiples for content sites we May see go up now Um They’re here let me give you my Reasoning for why i think they’re going To go up i think that you may struggle With earnings a bit right so i think we May see a dip in earnings as advertisers Pull back a bit and are less willing to Spend money on like display ads and
Stuff so you may see a bit of a dip in Earnings but you may see an increase In multiple and the reason i think you May see an increase in multiple Is because cash is king right in a Recession and so High cash flow businesses even small Internet companies or small internet Sites that are cash flow positive and You know spitting out cash month over Month quarter quarter Are super valuable and so i think There’s going to be a renewed interest In cash flow businesses particularly Internet cash flow businesses so even Though they may be earning less the fact That they are spitting out cash is super Interesting and helpful Interesting So I i’ve noticed like at least last year And sometimes right now it’s still Seeing websites at 51 52x multiples um You’re saying we’re looking at you know 30 to 40. are we already seeing a little Bit of retraction in 2022 I don’t think so i mean you’re talking About like edge cases at 50x right so Like most aren’t selling at 50x some do But most aren’t selling in that range I’m talking more generally right so 30 To 40 or maybe 34 to 44 As an average middle curve yeah yeah Yeah i mean you will see the 50s and
You’re going to continue to see that for The kind of like higher-end businesses Or the ones that are um a bit safer Secure a better investment from a Buyer’s perspective but yeah you’re Going to see the the low end as well Okay so if we’re going into an economic Winter what would you would you suggest Sellers consider selling their websites Now Yeah that’s an interesting one um it Depends on what you’re gonna do with the Money Right so what’s the plan for the cash I mean you know sitting on cash right Now i mean you’ve got uh some problems There too right with uh really high Inflation so Yeah i mean if you’ve got a strong plan For the cash For another internet company or you want To invest in something else that you’re You you have a unique advantage in then Yes absolutely and i think Um you know again it depends so fba you Know you may have already missed your Kind of peak in terms of being able to Sell in fba business i would say last Year and maybe Yeah q3 q4 of last year was peakish You might have missed that already I think content sites are going to Continue to do well Through 2022 and 2023 particularly for
The reasons i mentioned now can they Maintain earnings Are some of them going to get worse in Terms of earnings probably um but as i Said i think the multiples will get Better so that might be a wash i don’t Know I don’t know i think that we’re going to Be heading into Just generally speaking uh more of a Buyer’s market right and so we’ve been You know in a situation where sellers Can kind of like demand terms and you Know there’s more buyers out there than There are sellers and the demand has Been so high for literally everything Matt i don’t know if you’ve been Shopping last year for anything but it’s Crazy out there And it’s the same for websites Particularly content sites and i think That’s uh it’s going to change a bit i Mean buyers are going to get There’s going to be less of them so They’re going to be more attractive to Sellers i think you know we talked Earlier about like why would you Automate or why would you write down Your sops or create those processes So that you can sell your business right If buyers have you know a wide variety Of particular businesses they’re looking For your sellability is going to matter Not just how much you’re able to get for
The business whether it sells at all and So again you want to be you know not the Slowest gazelle there Got it all right cool cool good good Stuff there let’s uh let’s let’s finish Things off talking about some personal Questions i mean it’s been a couple Years since i’ve seen you so i want to Catch up on things Um first off like if you had to start Over what do you think you’d be doing Start over i don’t know i like what We’re doing man you know the fact that We’re able to work with um you know Buyers and sellers and other Entrepreneurs and people in our space Kind of like internet Um people Internet trolls internet uh you know Entrepreneurs digital nomads it’s really Fun and so helping them you know In some cases receive like life-changing Money i really love what we do like it’s Awesome so i mean i’d love to be in the Space i’d love to continue doing um what I’m doing so yeah i’d probably be doing This or something close to it we’re Doing some fun stuff over ef capital We’ve talked about it privately and i’ll Just mention it briefly but um you know We’re doing some fun stuff there where We’re helping to pair Operators people that have a proven Track record and they’ve got some
Experience and helping them leverage up By pairing them up with investors that Are going to help them buy you know Packages or websites or online Businesses particularly in that kind of 300 000 to 1.5 million dollar range that We talked about before so where there’s Kind of sweet spot and deals to be had We’re taking operators who have done a Good job already who know who’ve got the Chops and pairing them with investors Who don’t have the time or resources to Like build out or buy their own sites And letting them kind of invest in them So that’s really that’s a really fun Thing to do i think we’re solving a Problem it’s a A hole in our market that we’ve seen for Years i think we’re able to solve that So that’s that’s a fun project Nice nice Um you talked about this before like What do you do with what do you do with Cash if you sold a website What are you personally doing with your Internet money how are you investing Your money Yeah internet monies um so joe and i are For empires we’re looking for Opportunities right to buy businesses And particularly like lead gen for Empire flippers so what businesses can We buy that would feed into listings i Would get us more listings more sellers
For high quality businesses so that’s a Vendors from work we’re constantly Looking there now personally you know Joe and i have an agreement where we Can’t invest in or uh be a part of Businesses that could potentially be Sold at empire so we’re pretty limited In what we can invest in or be a part of With online businesses So personally i put a lot of money into Real estate over the last couple of Years you and i have talked about i Remember we were in my apartment in Saigon and you told me about some of Your real estate transactions you’ve Done you’ve done some rental properties And so i told you i was considering it And i’ve scaled that up over the last Couple years i bought a bunch of rental Properties here in texas i’ve got a few In georgia So yeah i’ve done real estate and that’s Been doing quite well as these Properties are appreciated um yeah we’ll See What’s coming but they’re you know cash Flow positive and renting so Excellent excellent um how are you Liking you’re in houston now how are you Liking houston because i know you’re a Digital nomad and you travel all over The place how do you like being tied Down in one spot i don’t i love it man I’m honest with you i uh i started
Talking before the show um I miss asia i miss europe i miss Traveling uh you know last year 2021 we Got out of vietnam because of the kind Of impending lockdowns and the lack of Vaccines and in vietnam we’re like okay Let’s get out of here let’s go to the U.s where things are opening up and Getting better and part of getting out Of there we came over here Um bought more real estate uh here in Texas Uh got ourselves a home here and started Setting up a home base um But i i we’re looking forward as i told You we’re looking to get back to asia Hopefully next month or the month after Pending some um some things we’re Dealing with in terms of green card Stuff for my wife we’d like to uh to get Back to asia before the end of the year And start doing the travel thing we’ll Probably spend three or four months a Year in the u.s maybe three or four Months in asia and then sometime in Europe every year is kind of the plan Yeah right well definitely hit me up It’s been too long Um last question i have i actually have Two more questions first one is congrats On losing weight how did you do it man You you look amazing right now Thanks man yeah so um I appreciate it uh you know last year in
2021 We were going to vegas and we were Having a team meet up there and so i was Flying there Um to meet up with them and on the way i Had uh popped my knee something in my Knee had popped to the point where i Wasn’t able to walk And so You know i was like this is bad i was in A wheelchair in vegas getting ready for A kind of like meet up and like pretty Bad physical shape and i went to the Doctor and uh you know the doctor was Like You know look man i can we can fix your Knee it’s a torn meniscus something we Can fix but you know if you don’t lose The weight man Like you’re gonna have other problems With other knees and to be really bad And i you know i tried before previous To lose weight and i was like well what Do you what would i do and it’s like Well you can get surgery for that you Know that’s fixable it’s like what he Starts telling me about something called Gastric sleeve surgery and you can get Surgery for weight loss and i was like I don’t know man it sounds a little Dodgy and and uh i went and saw a Surgeon and looked into it and and Realized it it was probably a good move And so i ended up getting surgery at the
Beginning of the year Um in january 2022 and i’ve lost you Know it’s july now i’ve lost 130 pounds I’m counting So yeah It i’ll be honest you i i always viewed It as kind of like a Just kind of a personal failing or Whatever i was like you know what i’m I’m good and strong in a lot of other Ways and career and stuff and i just i Just Wait’s been just kind of a personal Failure and just whatever man who cares And you know the doctor kind of uh Brought it up in a way that just didn’t Seem that way i mean it seemed like more Of a medical thing that just needed to Be corrected it was like a light bulb Went off for me and i was like yeah i Should fix that that’s probably a thing I should fix and uh yeah it really Helped yeah Awesome dude you look amazing so Uh final question pineapple on pizza or Just not touch pizza This is very controversial and i’m i’m Nervous about uh about saying i think Pineapple on pizza is just fine i think It’s just fine a lot of people are gonna Hate that but i think it’s just fine now I don’t eat much pizza these days but uh You know if i was eating pizza pineapple On pizza i’d be perfectly comfortable
With that All right Well thanks for this hour you spent with Us you’ve really opened up the book Really appreciate it um if there’s Anything i can do for you let me know And i’ll see you when you get to asia Thanks man appreciate it buddy all right Take care brother